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[Music]

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thank you

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[Music]

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foreign

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Hello everybody welcome back to the

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disclosure team YouTube channel

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um I am really looking forward to this

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conversation

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um we're going to be discussing the

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condyn report now I have been

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advertising this as a deep dive which I

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realized today that maybe I shouldn't

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have done because it is a very very long

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and extensive document we're not going

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to be going through it page for page but

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we're going to be talking about the

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background leading up to when the report

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was written so a lot of stuff focusing

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on the 1990s secas di55 and all the

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intricacies about that how it was

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discovered and then we will be talking

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about certain aspects of it and

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yeah I think you're going to enjoy this

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one we've David's done a lot of prep

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work he knows it inside and out so yeah

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if anybody does have any questions

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please pop them in capital letters and

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we'll try and get to them as and when we

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can if it's relevant to that particular

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moment in the conversation then I'll try

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and get it in if not I'll save them sort

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of to a bit later on

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so yeah keep it nice and polite in the

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chat and let's enjoy this one so excuse

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me

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let's bring in uh my guest a monthly

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appearance now on the channel uh my good

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friend and colleague Dr David Clark

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David hi oh I'm fine thank you looking

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forward to this yes absolutely we met

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the other night didn't we and uh I think

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it's worth mentioning that you

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handed me the what the only surviving

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original copy is that right yeah

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um uh colleague Amano I was working with

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at the time when we got this release

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called Gary Anthony has a second copy

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but I've not I don't know what's

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happened together I haven't been in

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touch with him for years so if I got run

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over by a bus or someone that the Men in

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Black came and stole my copy there is

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still another one out there as well

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somewhere I should say this is these are

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redacted copies you know it's the the

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original unredacted one is a different

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story altogether that we'll touch upon

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we will definitely get into that because

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that is an ongoing

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palava let's say but yes I do have the

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original here and it's an absolutely

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incredible story about how it came about

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and we'll get into that as well so I

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suppose the first point would be let's

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touch upon the kind of early to mid 90s

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because we know we know from Nick Pope

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that you know

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well we know from Nick Pope and other

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areas that the UFO subject was kind of

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worked upon in sort of two different

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departments we had secas taking reports

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and we had di55 doing the legwork let's

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say so

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well there's actually three okay yeah

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let's take it from there there was a

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right there's an RAF

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um Branch as well um called

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rafge which is ground environment and

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they were the section of the RAF that

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receive all the data from the various

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radar stations

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um and also from the a-wax you know from

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the Airborne radar so they were the

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people who um secas and the I-55 would

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immediately say if something was seen

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particularly if I from aircrew or

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something they would go to that branch

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and say

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um

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did you see anything was there anything

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seen on radar at the time and and that

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was really the sort of deal breaker for

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a lot of the of of the stuff that they

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looked into it they'd a lot of the

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reports from the public if there was

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nothing seen on radar then it was just

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right Waste Paper been not interested

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what was it like for the pilots in that

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throughout the decades for reporting

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sightings then because you know we know

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that in the US it was kind of frowned

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upon for fear of reprisal and

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all sorts of repercussions because it

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seemed was it was it that bad here in

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the UK definitely and he does actually

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mention this interestingly in the

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section on air Miss incidents because he

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he looks at part of the report that I

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think in volume three he puts together a

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list of all the because he was looking

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for the database that he did 1987 to

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1997 10-year period and he did actually

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look at all the reports filed by Civil

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Air crew of near misses at that time and

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there was a very famous one you most

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people um listening to this will

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remember the one at Manchester Airport

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in 1997 whether I think there was a I

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think it was a 747 coming into land from

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full of holiday makers coming in from

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Italy and they're coming in low to

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Manchester and the the pilot and the

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co-pilot both saw this thing coming

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towards them like a Christmas tree all

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lit up zooming past well that was one of

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the um one of the air near Miss cases

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that he looked at and interestingly he

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also sort of had access to

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um the RAS records of fatal accidents

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involving

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um RAF aircraft and yeah I think you put

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I think he put together a collection of

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those from this same period and see if

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he could there was any

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um anything that he could they could

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link it with where an aircraft had had

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crashed in unexplained circumstances

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where the pilot presumably had taken

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evasive action to avoid something seen

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coming directly towards them but he

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didn't find any correlations that he

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could sort of say were indicative of

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being a UAP involved but the fact that

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he looked at that was interesting but

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then there were a lot of them that were

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unexplained or unresolved yeah a lot but

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we'll get into that maybe a little bit

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further down the line and he does say he

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does say it's underreported that

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basically aircrew aren't reporting it

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because of the media

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um sensationalism about the subject

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which is interesting because this is

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exactly the same thing is being

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discussed in the Congressional hearings

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in the U.S just this last few months

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yeah yeah so I guess that the first

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thing to do is let's talk about the

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study itself when it was I say when it

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was discovered but leading up to it we

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know that uh well and this is not going

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going to be a Nick Poe bashing episode I

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just want to say that his name's going

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to come up a little bit because one

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thing that Nick Pope has stated publicly

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and probably more than once is that he

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had he kind of kick-started the initial

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um discussions about formulating this

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report the condiment report but we know

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that that's not true because there were

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at least two other times that it was uh

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talked about but it didn't go through

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for lack of funding so do you want to

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start there and then we can work our way

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through the timeline well I mean there's

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so many there's literally hundreds of

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background documents that have emerged

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quite separate from the report itself

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and if you just look at the um the

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touring and throw in what Nick says just

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doesn't stand up because he was told by

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his opposite number

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di55c who was the di55 UFO officer who

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I've actually spoken to I know who he is

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um

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study a computerized study of data info

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data that they'd been copied by secas

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ever since the 1970s so that their files

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had built up and up and up and they were

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saying well we've never had time to look

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at this stuff or do a proper analysis if

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any if anybody ever asks us a serious

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question about it in Parliament how are

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we going to answer it we need and this

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is when

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some of the folks who are listening

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might remember like the very first

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computers in the 1980s you know the

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amstrads and all that business the mod

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were using those sorts of computers and

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and some bright spark said why don't we

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start inputting some of these UFO

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reports into you know a Excel database

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and and see if we can come up with any

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information that might help us to

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explain cases and answer parliamentary

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questions so they initially tried to get

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this database going as far back as 1988

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and it was secas who was saying do not

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do that under any circumstances and two

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or three attempts to actually set up

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this database were were um kiboshed by

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um Nick Pope's predecessors

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the head of Zacchaeus just said if you

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do this we're saying publicly that we

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don't investigate this subject we don't

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spend any money on it if it then emerges

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that you've been doing this study we're

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going to look as if we've been laying

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which we have been yeah so don't do it

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so second s didn't do anything other

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than act as a Clearinghouse for people

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reporting publicly and they were copying

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everything to di55 and it was di55 who

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were pushing for funds to do an actual

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study because they took the subject

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seriously so all that happened in 1993

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when Nick Pope was um the desk officer

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was his opposite number in di55 said

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right we finally got some money to do a

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study and I'm telling you off the Record

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um that's what's um we're planning to do

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but that study came to nothing yeah as

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you as you know Vinnie from looking at

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there was even Nick left that post in

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1994

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um and there was at least two possibly

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three other attempts by di55 to get get

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the foot the study funded and off the

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ground that failed and and the original

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study that Nick was told about wasn't

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anything like what um eventually Ron

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hadu got got to actually do they'd

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scaled it down massively they weren't

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even going to look at any incidents

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specific incidents like red Wilson which

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was in the original terms of reference

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that got kicked out

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um so um by the time it eventually got

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commissioned in 1996 which is long after

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Nick Pope had moved on it was a

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completely different study that was um

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that was done yeah and even then

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anything that di55 were doing with

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relations to UAP and UFOs secas would

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not know about it no and for no one

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didn't go back it only went up and as a

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result of Nick Pope's activities

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publishing books and coming out on the

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subject it made that um that Schism

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between the two departments even wider

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because the I-55 was saying don't tell

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secas anything because they're leaky

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they leak stuff you know look what Nick

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Pope's been doing you know with his

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media campaign and and so when the

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report was completed and delivered in

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2000 they didn't even tell

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um the UFO desk about it this is the UFO

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desk that we have been told is the

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central Clearinghouse for all Ministry

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of Defense uh statements on the subject

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well they weren't even told that this

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report had been completed so when I put

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in a Freedom of Information Act request

276
00:10:57,590 --> 00:10:55,140
in 2005 to see it the desk officer then

277
00:10:59,150 --> 00:10:57,600
Linda Unwin who I knew really well she

278
00:11:01,370 --> 00:10:59,160
she was doing that job for about five

279
00:11:03,290 --> 00:11:01,380
years she had to go looking for it

280
00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:03,300
because she'd never seen it herself

281
00:11:08,269 --> 00:11:06,480
and she went back to the files from 2000

282
00:11:10,610 --> 00:11:08,279
when they should have received it

283
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:10,620
there's nothing in the file so I said

284
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:12,480
well how do you know it was even done

285
00:11:17,810 --> 00:11:14,640
well she said we don't maybe they told

286
00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:17,820
us by telephone so this is the this is

287
00:11:21,650 --> 00:11:20,220
the the UFO desk and there's nothing

288
00:11:24,590 --> 00:11:21,660
about it

289
00:11:26,030 --> 00:11:24,600
that's amazing so how did you first hear

290
00:11:27,410 --> 00:11:26,040
about it because you were doing a lot of

291
00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:27,420
work with the National Archives at the

292
00:11:31,850 --> 00:11:29,940
time so you were fully embedded in the

293
00:11:34,430 --> 00:11:31,860
UFO kind of world when it came to

294
00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:34,440
documents and that and yeah you know so

295
00:11:38,810 --> 00:11:36,720
when did this combine report first come

296
00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:38,820
off your radar well this is interesting

297
00:11:43,130 --> 00:11:40,200
because this makes me feel like a

298
00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:43,140
dinosaur because it's so long ago now

299
00:11:47,150 --> 00:11:45,480
um but you know like I'm a member of UAP

300
00:11:53,389 --> 00:11:47,160
media

301
00:11:55,670 --> 00:11:53,399
years ago I was like you Vinnie and

302
00:11:57,650 --> 00:11:55,680
Graham and Dan and all the rest of it I

303
00:11:59,329 --> 00:11:57,660
was I was in in another little sort of

304
00:12:01,790 --> 00:11:59,339
group of individuals then we didn't call

305
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:01,800
ourselves anything but it was basically

306
00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:04,079
me Gary Anthony who I've mentioned

307
00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:06,420
already who was a really active

308
00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:08,160
researcher he was putting in lots and

309
00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:10,920
lots of Freedom of Information requests

310
00:12:16,190 --> 00:12:13,140
um Joe McGonagall who is still on the

311
00:12:18,110 --> 00:12:16,200
scene he Joe's XR British Army he's got

312
00:12:20,449 --> 00:12:18,120
a lot of knowledge about the military he

313
00:12:23,329 --> 00:12:20,459
was really pushing the foi thing as well

314
00:12:24,710 --> 00:12:23,339
Andy Robertson was one of my writing

315
00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:24,720
Partners at the time so the four

316
00:12:30,110 --> 00:12:27,060
revolves we were going to the national

317
00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:30,120
archives in queue and constantly every

318
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:31,860
every January when they released the

319
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,360
files

320
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,000
um 30th Anniversary um 30 years which we

321
00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:38,399
then had the 30-year rule so we knew we

322
00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:40,320
knew that we knew the the and we were

323
00:12:43,850 --> 00:12:42,180
also tracing some of the people who were

324
00:12:47,449 --> 00:12:43,860
in who were mentioned whose names are in

325
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:47,459
those files and and interviewing them

326
00:12:54,590 --> 00:12:48,240
um

327
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:54,600
the info desk officer at Whitehall we

328
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:56,639
got I mean she was great she was

329
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:58,260
brilliant and this was when Freedom of

330
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:59,519
Information was actually working

331
00:13:03,650 --> 00:13:01,200
properly when you could ask for things

332
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:03,660
and if they got them they would go and

333
00:13:07,370 --> 00:13:06,000
find them for you and say yes you can

334
00:13:09,550 --> 00:13:07,380
have it we may have to take something

335
00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:09,560
out it's National Security but

336
00:13:14,090 --> 00:13:11,700
completely different to how it is today

337
00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:14,100
and you know I was on such friendly

338
00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:16,680
terms with them they invited me down to

339
00:13:21,949 --> 00:13:18,300
White art to the Minister of Defense

340
00:13:24,650 --> 00:13:21,959
main building two occasions I went there

341
00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:24,660
um and one occasion with Joe

342
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,000
um we had a whole set of questions

343
00:13:32,509 --> 00:13:29,519
um three or four pages of questions you

344
00:13:35,810 --> 00:13:32,519
know what about specific cases and about

345
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:35,820
how they investigated UFO incidents and

346
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,399
they invited us in we actually went sat

347
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:40,560
on the UFO desk which looked exactly

348
00:13:44,509 --> 00:13:42,480
like the desk I'm sat at now there was

349
00:13:46,910 --> 00:13:44,519
nothing special about it

350
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:46,920
um and we're able to sort of do a q a

351
00:13:51,949 --> 00:13:49,560
with Linda and her boss Rob Lincoln at

352
00:13:53,509 --> 00:13:51,959
the time who was the head of secas they

353
00:13:56,269 --> 00:13:53,519
wouldn't allow us to record the

354
00:13:59,170 --> 00:13:56,279
conversation but they did send us like a

355
00:14:02,509 --> 00:13:59,180
list of answers to our written questions

356
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:02,519
and the second time I went down was um I

357
00:14:08,269 --> 00:14:04,380
think it must have been April or May

358
00:14:11,870 --> 00:14:08,279
2006 so this I requested a copy of the

359
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:11,880
condyn report on the 1st of January 2005

360
00:14:15,889 --> 00:14:13,680
which is when the Freedom of Information

361
00:14:18,829 --> 00:14:15,899
Act it was implemented and I already

362
00:14:20,509 --> 00:14:18,839
knew the report existed because I'd

363
00:14:21,889 --> 00:14:20,519
found out from talking to Linda and

364
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:21,899
going back through some of these old

365
00:14:27,889 --> 00:14:24,360
documents I knew they'd commissioned it

366
00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:27,899
and knew that di55 in the year 2000 had

367
00:14:32,569 --> 00:14:30,540
pulled out of the subject altogether and

368
00:14:35,629 --> 00:14:32,579
had told secas don't send us any more

369
00:14:38,269 --> 00:14:35,639
food don't send us any more reports so I

370
00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:38,279
asked Linda why why did they pull out of

371
00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:40,500
it and and she she sort of went and

372
00:14:44,269 --> 00:14:42,060
looked and said well

373
00:14:46,670 --> 00:14:44,279
uh they they pulled out of it because

374
00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:46,680
they did some kind of study

375
00:14:50,689 --> 00:14:48,540
um that concluded they no longer needed

376
00:14:53,569 --> 00:14:50,699
to receive reports and that as soon as I

377
00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:53,579
heard that I thought study right there

378
00:14:58,490 --> 00:14:55,500
must be a report then so let's see it

379
00:15:00,650 --> 00:14:58,500
and so I put in the foi request for the

380
00:15:02,509 --> 00:15:00,660
report in first of January and it took

381
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:02,519
him a year I think it took him until

382
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:03,480
like

383
00:15:08,449 --> 00:15:05,880
May 2006.

384
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:08,459
to go through it line by line to see

385
00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:10,500
what had to come out and then Linda rang

386
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,940
me up and said would you like to come

387
00:15:17,810 --> 00:15:13,920
down to London we've got a copy for you

388
00:15:19,310 --> 00:15:17,820
such a hopped on a train went into the

389
00:15:20,930 --> 00:15:19,320
ministry of Defense main building

390
00:15:23,110 --> 00:15:20,940
through the big bubble thing where the

391
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:23,120
body scan you with the

392
00:15:27,290 --> 00:15:25,440
guys standing around with submachine

393
00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:27,300
guns and what have you and and she just

394
00:15:31,129 --> 00:15:28,860
she was just waiting with a big brown

395
00:15:32,689 --> 00:15:31,139
envelope here it is handed it over I

396
00:15:34,430 --> 00:15:32,699
couldn't I couldn't believe it I just

397
00:15:36,110 --> 00:15:34,440
could not believe it

398
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:36,120
um so I walked out of mod main building

399
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:38,220
sat in a coffee shop in Trafalgar Square

400
00:15:43,370 --> 00:15:41,040
and took this thing out and sort of here

401
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:43,380
it is sort of I can't believe this is

402
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,079
the top secret report on uaps that

403
00:15:50,810 --> 00:15:48,240
they've done in secrecy

404
00:15:53,810 --> 00:15:50,820
and kept under wraps for how long about

405
00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:53,820
it five or six years yeah it was yeah

406
00:15:59,329 --> 00:15:56,220
and so at that time when you were around

407
00:16:02,810 --> 00:15:59,339
that time early 2000s did you have any

408
00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:02,820
connections or sources in di55 or was

409
00:16:12,889 --> 00:16:05,220
that just they just definitely were just

410
00:16:16,370 --> 00:16:14,870
um well from this from the materials of

411
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:16,380
the National Archives because this was

412
00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:19,260
before they started redacting names from

413
00:16:24,889 --> 00:16:21,660
the documents this is before gdpr this

414
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,899
is before data protection so everything

415
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:26,399
up to

416
00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:28,620
um 1984

417
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:30,420
had been released

418
00:16:34,009 --> 00:16:32,639
with no redactions you can go there now

419
00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:34,019
and you can order it up in the reading

420
00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:36,060
room you've done this video yeah with

421
00:16:39,050 --> 00:16:37,980
you with Dan and and the others in

422
00:16:41,569 --> 00:16:39,060
Graham

423
00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:41,579
the names are in there so the people who

424
00:16:49,009 --> 00:16:45,240
were in di55 in the 1960s and the 1970s

425
00:16:50,749 --> 00:16:49,019
their names are there right so and so

426
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:50,759
I'd track some of them down the ones who

427
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:52,980
were still alive and talk to them and

428
00:16:56,150 --> 00:16:54,660
they were quite most of them were quite

429
00:16:57,410 --> 00:16:56,160
happy to talk

430
00:17:00,410 --> 00:16:57,420
I mean they'd probably not be around

431
00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:00,420
anymore but I I spoke to some of the

432
00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:04,380
um they are all men who were um they

433
00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:06,660
were defense scientists they're not

434
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:09,240
military people they are the people with

435
00:17:13,789 --> 00:17:11,280
technical intelligence especially and

436
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:13,799
this is where the author of The condone

437
00:17:18,010 --> 00:17:15,600
report maybe one wants to show a picture

438
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:18,020
of him I'll bring him up yes

439
00:17:23,689 --> 00:17:21,360
we found we didn't know this immediately

440
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:23,699
it took some digging digging around and

441
00:17:28,370 --> 00:17:25,980
talking to people but um

442
00:17:29,450 --> 00:17:28,380
yeah let's talk about that because that

443
00:17:31,610 --> 00:17:29,460
was Secret

444
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,620
for a long yes they would they would not

445
00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:33,360
tell me Linda underwing would not tell

446
00:17:36,590 --> 00:17:35,640
me who who the author is who the author

447
00:17:40,370 --> 00:17:36,600
was

448
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,380
and this is Ron haddo and if anyone

449
00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:42,000
could be described as the ministry of

450
00:17:47,810 --> 00:17:45,900
Defense as a UFO expert it is wrong

451
00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:47,820
um and the reason they brought him in to

452
00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:49,380
write this was they didn't think anyone

453
00:17:54,890 --> 00:17:51,720
else was qualified to do it

454
00:17:57,710 --> 00:17:54,900
um he um had worked for him for di55 for

455
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,720
many years he'd had his own UFO sighting

456
00:18:00,529 --> 00:17:59,520
in the 1950s when he was flying a

457
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:00,539
Canberra

458
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:03,600
secret Intruder operation presumably

459
00:18:09,470 --> 00:18:05,760
over the Soviet Union he actually filled

460
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,480
in one of the UFO report forms he says

461
00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:11,520
this in his in his letter that's in the

462
00:18:16,610 --> 00:18:13,260
files you know about the setting up of

463
00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:16,620
the study yeah and um he worked for gec

464
00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:18,980
Marconi which is like one of the Premier

465
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:22,260
electronic companies in the UK I think

466
00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:25,080
it's now um part of kinetic

467
00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:28,020
um he'd flown in the RAF from the 1950s

468
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:30,660
he'd been involved in intrude emissions

469
00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:33,600
as I say over the Soviet Union

470
00:18:39,529 --> 00:18:37,260
um his expertise is radar and that's the

471
00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:39,539
that's probably why he was qualified and

472
00:18:46,010 --> 00:18:43,500
he is Professor Ron hadu and I did a bit

473
00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:46,020
of digging and I thought well what was

474
00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:49,740
his PhD in and I found his PhD at the

475
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:51,960
University of Loughborough guess what

476
00:18:57,650 --> 00:18:54,960
the PHD is about now I've got a the

477
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:57,660
title page here it's the probability of

478
00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:00,240
detecting and tracking radar Targets in

479
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:04,260
clutter at low grazing uh angles which

480
00:19:13,789 --> 00:19:10,669
what his PhD was about is how you can

481
00:19:16,850 --> 00:19:13,799
use radar to track and identify flying

482
00:19:20,029 --> 00:19:16,860
objects at low altitude

483
00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:20,039
so trying under the kind of Radar Radar

484
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:22,980
cover isn't that what UFOs do exactly

485
00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:25,919
that yeah or uaps as we now call them

486
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:27,720
well they say you now call them they

487
00:19:31,549 --> 00:19:29,280
call them now for this study didn't they

488
00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:31,559
well they did yeah they preferred uaps

489
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:33,240
and this is this is obviously they use

490
00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:36,360
the the UAP thing and this is like if

491
00:19:39,409 --> 00:19:37,740
you look in those documents when they

492
00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:39,419
were commissioning the

493
00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:41,820
the report in the late 90s and there was

494
00:19:48,169 --> 00:19:46,679
this to and fro between them and secas

495
00:19:51,289 --> 00:19:48,179
um they would they were using the phrase

496
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:51,299
UAP and second yes we're using UFOs and

497
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,520
and the head of secas was saying why are

498
00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:55,200
you using new APS

499
00:20:00,230 --> 00:19:57,679
what's that all about

500
00:20:01,430 --> 00:20:00,240
uh just a quick mention to the live chat

501
00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:01,440
I've got yeah I've seen your question

502
00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:03,660
Jonathan I've got yours in fact I'll ask

503
00:20:08,510 --> 00:20:05,220
Jonathan's now because that is a really

504
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,520
good question uh did di55 really close

505
00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:10,559
or was it a change of name was it taken

506
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:12,720
into the private sector to avoid foia

507
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:14,700
and government scrutiny

508
00:20:21,770 --> 00:20:18,840
great question that Jonathan and uh they

509
00:20:23,690 --> 00:20:21,780
say it's it no longer exists and I'm

510
00:20:26,029 --> 00:20:23,700
sure they're right because like with all

511
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:26,039
these um you know like if we if we go

512
00:20:31,610 --> 00:20:28,140
back to the UFO desk

513
00:20:34,610 --> 00:20:31,620
it was called um S6 air back in the

514
00:20:37,549 --> 00:20:34,620
1950s then it became S4 Air then it

515
00:20:41,090 --> 00:20:37,559
became ds8 then it becomes secas then it

516
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:41,100
becomes Das the these departments are

517
00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:43,500
moving around changing the names merging

518
00:20:48,770 --> 00:20:45,900
with each other so I'm pretty sure the

519
00:20:51,230 --> 00:20:48,780
di55 no longer exists but there will be

520
00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:51,240
another Branch or agency of the defense

521
00:20:56,150 --> 00:20:52,740
intelligence staff that are doing

522
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:56,160
exactly what the I-55 were doing under a

523
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:57,360
different name and I think you've hit

524
00:21:02,090 --> 00:20:59,760
the nail right on the head when you say

525
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:02,100
it's been moved outside

526
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:02,880
um

527
00:21:07,370 --> 00:21:05,520
into the private sector they've got some

528
00:21:09,950 --> 00:21:07,380
kind of um

529
00:21:12,590 --> 00:21:09,960
um private sort of

530
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:12,600
um contractor a bit like Ron haddo

531
00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:14,220
because what had happened with ROM was

532
00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:17,580
he'd been in di55 he retired about the

533
00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:19,380
time that they commissioned this study

534
00:21:23,870 --> 00:21:21,240
and they thought well we'll get him back

535
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:23,880
one final job you know get him to write

536
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:25,919
the the report and so he was brought

537
00:21:30,169 --> 00:21:28,080
back from retirement he wrapped it up

538
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:30,179
within another defense contract so that

539
00:21:34,909 --> 00:21:31,679
he didn't have to say it was very

540
00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:34,919
specifically about uaps and that's how

541
00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:37,140
they hid it from the public for the

542
00:21:40,730 --> 00:21:38,820
length of time they did but

543
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,740
they didn't hide it very well because we

544
00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:42,720
we've got we've got it

545
00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:45,000
um but I think that as a result of all

546
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:47,460
the publicity and all the um the upset

547
00:21:52,190 --> 00:21:50,400
that we've caused I think they they've

548
00:21:54,110 --> 00:21:52,200
they've obviously got into a huddle and

549
00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:54,120
said how can we avoid all this stuff

550
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:56,340
coming out again and they'll come up

551
00:22:02,450 --> 00:21:59,280
with some dastardly plan to hide whoever

552
00:22:05,090 --> 00:22:02,460
it is who's now responsible for um uaps

553
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:05,100
and to make sure that nosy Parker's

554
00:22:08,990 --> 00:22:06,720
making um Freedom of Information

555
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:09,000
requests they can just say we don't have

556
00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:10,980
anything on this subject yeah we don't

557
00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:12,900
have any records and strictly speaking

558
00:22:18,049 --> 00:22:15,000
it's true because

559
00:22:20,510 --> 00:22:18,059
they can only they only have to admit to

560
00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:20,520
records that are held in a by a public

561
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:23,940
body that's what the foi covers so if

562
00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:26,640
they've paid a private com contractor to

563
00:22:30,950 --> 00:22:28,620
look after their paperwork and look

564
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:30,960
after any investigations they're doing

565
00:22:35,149 --> 00:22:32,880
they can just move all the paperwork to

566
00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:35,159
the private contractor and they don't

567
00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:37,620
then have to respond to any Freedom of

568
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:39,659
Information requests yeah I think that's

569
00:22:43,789 --> 00:22:41,640
what's happened absolutely and it's very

570
00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:43,799
clear you mentioned there there's a lot

571
00:22:49,549 --> 00:22:46,679
of documents that were flying around at

572
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:49,559
the time as well from di55 that are

573
00:22:53,570 --> 00:22:51,600
available you know some of them are

574
00:22:56,690 --> 00:22:53,580
redacted I've got copies of all of those

575
00:22:58,490 --> 00:22:56,700
and it's very clear that they were

576
00:23:00,409 --> 00:22:58,500
concerned about the UFO community and

577
00:23:02,810 --> 00:23:00,419
the researchers they they knew they were

578
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:02,820
going to get questions so they were very

579
00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:04,740
much Towing the line trying to do what

580
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:06,120
they can to keep the information away

581
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:08,760
from from the researchers and what I'm

582
00:23:13,070 --> 00:23:11,280
going to do maybe later after this video

583
00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:13,080
I am going to create a folder with all

584
00:23:16,750 --> 00:23:14,400
these documents for anybody that wants

585
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,760
to go in to do

586
00:23:21,169 --> 00:23:18,960
because this is separate from the actual

587
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:21,179
report and it's all about the study and

588
00:23:25,850 --> 00:23:24,000
how it's created and why and it's really

589
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:25,860
interesting so I will create that and

590
00:23:28,909 --> 00:23:27,120
put a link in the description below

591
00:23:31,310 --> 00:23:28,919
after the fact

592
00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:31,320
um I suppose the next point to make in

593
00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:32,940
fact do we have any of the documents

594
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,640
that we want to show just yet

595
00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:37,440
um

596
00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:39,000
doesn't matter if we don't I'm just

597
00:23:41,690 --> 00:23:40,500
looking we've got lots of documents open

598
00:23:42,890 --> 00:23:41,700
that we want to share throughout the

599
00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:42,900
video so I just want to make sure we

600
00:23:47,810 --> 00:23:45,900
don't miss the timing of them

601
00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:47,820
um do you want to show that one where

602
00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:50,580
Ron is is basically saying what he's

603
00:23:55,010 --> 00:23:52,500
gonna what his report is gonna find

604
00:23:58,370 --> 00:23:55,020
before he's written it that's conclusion

605
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,380
isn't it yeah that's a shocking document

606
00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:00,240
yeah which

607
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:02,340
explain that again that he actually

608
00:24:05,870 --> 00:24:04,500
basically the whole point that I have to

609
00:24:07,610 --> 00:24:05,880
explain this to students all the time

610
00:24:09,529 --> 00:24:07,620
who are doing dissertations the purpose

611
00:24:12,529 --> 00:24:09,539
of research is not to prove something

612
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:12,539
that you already think is the is the

613
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:14,760
case it's like it's like saying you know

614
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:17,039
I think the sky is blue therefore I'm

615
00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:19,919
gonna go and prove it's blue you know

616
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,500
you do research to in a totally

617
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:25,440
objective open-minded way

618
00:24:30,770 --> 00:24:27,960
um to explore questions that you think

619
00:24:33,169 --> 00:24:30,780
haven't been answered so if you're if

620
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:33,179
you set out with a with a preconceived

621
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:36,480
idea of what you're going to find and

622
00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:38,640
you set out specifically to prove that

623
00:24:42,830 --> 00:24:40,260
of course you're going to find evidence

624
00:24:49,210 --> 00:24:42,840
to support your contention that's

625
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,590
the whole subject really yeah yeah yeah

626
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:53,520
and yeah

627
00:24:57,289 --> 00:24:55,679
um I mean we haven't even got on to the

628
00:25:00,230 --> 00:24:57,299
methodology I mean how he went about

629
00:25:01,730 --> 00:25:00,240
actually doing the the study fatally

630
00:25:03,770 --> 00:25:01,740
flawed

631
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:03,780
yeah so here you see um I'm just gonna

632
00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:05,520
close my window I'll be back in one

633
00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:08,100
second I'll let you go through this this

634
00:25:11,930 --> 00:25:09,780
is brilliant if this was a student

635
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:11,940
submitting a dissertation proposal it'd

636
00:25:15,710 --> 00:25:13,620
be failed straight away

637
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:15,720
so he's basically saying the second

638
00:25:19,010 --> 00:25:17,340
sentence could cause considerable

639
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:19,020
embarrassment if it was discovered in

640
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:21,360
the future that di55 have done some

641
00:25:27,769 --> 00:25:24,000
research I am particularly looking ahead

642
00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:27,779
to my expected recommendation that di55

643
00:25:33,049 --> 00:25:30,120
should no longer be involved in UAP

644
00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:33,059
monitoring so think about it folks this

645
00:25:37,310 --> 00:25:35,460
is um he's been told to go off and look

646
00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:37,320
at what they've got on this subject and

647
00:25:43,250 --> 00:25:39,900
decide whether there's any evidence in

648
00:25:45,230 --> 00:25:43,260
the data that suggests that UA uaps or

649
00:25:46,970 --> 00:25:45,240
UFOs or whatever they are wherever they

650
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:46,980
come from wherever they are are they a

651
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:49,260
threat to the UK

652
00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:51,120
so what he's saying here is before he's

653
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:52,980
actually done the research

654
00:25:57,529 --> 00:25:54,960
he's already decided what the conclusion

655
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:57,539
is and that is that they don't pose a

656
00:26:02,029 --> 00:25:59,880
threat to the UK

657
00:26:04,490 --> 00:26:02,039
um re air defense reason and that

658
00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:04,500
basically means that his former employer

659
00:26:09,950 --> 00:26:07,500
the mod and di55 don't need to be

660
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:09,960
monitoring the subject anymore so that

661
00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:11,760
to me that that what you're looking at

662
00:26:17,210 --> 00:26:14,340
there says it says what was really going

663
00:26:18,649 --> 00:26:17,220
on they were saying to him ROM is 50 000

664
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:18,659
pounds we know you're interested in this

665
00:26:22,669 --> 00:26:20,640
subject off you go

666
00:26:24,110 --> 00:26:22,679
um do a bit of research on it you can

667
00:26:25,730 --> 00:26:24,120
see what you like but as long as you

668
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:25,740
come out with the recommendation that we

669
00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:27,120
should no longer be involved in it

670
00:26:32,269 --> 00:26:30,360
that's all we want to hear that isn't

671
00:26:35,630 --> 00:26:32,279
the way folks to do research is it

672
00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:35,640
really so he's saying there someone will

673
00:26:39,710 --> 00:26:37,320
have to explain

674
00:26:41,630 --> 00:26:39,720
why this is so assuming the

675
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:41,640
recommendation is accepted so he hasn't

676
00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:43,200
even done the research to reach the

677
00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:44,940
recommendation but he already knows what

678
00:26:49,610 --> 00:26:46,740
the recommendation is going to be so

679
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:49,620
he's saying when and if the ufologist

680
00:26:54,409 --> 00:26:52,260
Discover this they will inevitably ask

681
00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:54,419
is there no further intelligence

682
00:26:59,390 --> 00:26:56,700
interest because mod now know for

683
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,400
certain what these phenomena are how

684
00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:00,960
could this conclusion have been reached

685
00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:02,760
without doing research or having some

686
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:05,220
sort of intelligence confirmation

687
00:27:09,169 --> 00:27:07,980
if there was nothing to worry about why

688
00:27:12,049 --> 00:27:09,179
couldn't this conclusion have been

689
00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:12,059
reached earlier and were and this is a

690
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:15,240
key one I think were mod aware that

691
00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:18,000
black covert aircraft in the UK air

692
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:19,620
defense region

693
00:27:24,049 --> 00:27:22,200
have visited the UK air defense I think

694
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:24,059
that's a specific reference to Calvin

695
00:27:28,669 --> 00:27:26,880
yeah because of the safety aspects and

696
00:27:30,409 --> 00:27:28,679
if so why would the public not reassured

697
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:30,419
and he's also saying there that the name

698
00:27:36,409 --> 00:27:32,760
blacked out I'm absolutely sure is Nick

699
00:27:38,330 --> 00:27:36,419
Pope and he's saying he realizes that

700
00:27:39,710 --> 00:27:38,340
there's a lot of public attention now on

701
00:27:41,390 --> 00:27:39,720
this subject because of the fact that

702
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:41,400
Nick Pope's written a book one of our

703
00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:42,720
former

704
00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:44,580
um uh people who used to work for us or

705
00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:47,100
did still did at that time and he also

706
00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:48,720
mentions Nick Redford as well because he

707
00:27:52,130 --> 00:27:50,460
was another one who was writing but

708
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,140
obviously a member of the public who was

709
00:27:57,470 --> 00:27:54,480
causing them a lot of trouble

710
00:27:59,450 --> 00:27:57,480
um around this period late 1990s and

711
00:28:00,890 --> 00:27:59,460
we'll just say the reason why you say

712
00:28:02,930 --> 00:28:00,900
that it's Nick Pope in that blacked out

713
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:02,940
box you have been told that from someone

714
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:05,039
it's not I mean it'd be great if it's an

715
00:28:07,789 --> 00:28:06,240
educated guess but you have actually

716
00:28:09,289 --> 00:28:07,799
been told that from someone yeah and

717
00:28:12,110 --> 00:28:09,299
there are other documents where he's

718
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:12,120
mentioned by name specifically that um

719
00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:14,880
that's the reason why the I don't trust

720
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:17,220
secas anymore because of the fact that

721
00:28:20,269 --> 00:28:18,960
um his activities have been that they

722
00:28:23,390 --> 00:28:20,279
don't trust them

723
00:28:26,269 --> 00:28:23,400
with information so that's shocking so

724
00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:26,279
already before the report's done we know

725
00:28:32,090 --> 00:28:29,580
that they are going to be honing in on a

726
00:28:35,649 --> 00:28:32,100
conclusion that's pre-specified let's

727
00:28:40,130 --> 00:28:38,510
he clearly thought that there was

728
00:28:42,409 --> 00:28:40,140
something in the UFO I mean because I

729
00:28:44,029 --> 00:28:42,419
just read you a a paragraph which I

730
00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:44,039
think is key

731
00:28:48,289 --> 00:28:46,020
um in the if you go to vol 1 I think

732
00:28:51,470 --> 00:28:48,299
it's paid the first page of vol 1 he

733
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:51,480
says he just introduces the subject and

734
00:28:58,130 --> 00:28:55,440
he says that UFOs or uaps exist is

735
00:29:02,330 --> 00:28:58,140
indisputable credited with the ability

736
00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:02,340
to hover land take off accelerate to um

737
00:29:06,890 --> 00:29:04,740
exceptional velocities or vanish they

738
00:29:09,409 --> 00:29:06,900
can reportedly alter their direction of

739
00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:09,419
flight suddenly and clearly can exhibit

740
00:29:13,549 --> 00:29:11,640
aerodynamic characteristics well beyond

741
00:29:16,130 --> 00:29:13,559
those of any known aircraft or missile

742
00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:16,140
whether Mando or unmanned

743
00:29:21,049 --> 00:29:18,299
he says that you know in his first page

744
00:29:22,850 --> 00:29:21,059
that's the line that most people pull

745
00:29:24,409 --> 00:29:22,860
out of that entire report and go look

746
00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:24,419
the UK thought there was definitely

747
00:29:27,889 --> 00:29:26,700
something to it yeah you know when you

748
00:29:29,810 --> 00:29:27,899
look at the big picture of the whole

749
00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:29,820
report that's exactly the opposite of

750
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:31,260
what they were saying so and this is

751
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:32,580
something I mentioned to you the other

752
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:34,799
night when we met up is that do you

753
00:29:40,909 --> 00:29:36,480
think there's many contradictions in the

754
00:29:43,010 --> 00:29:40,919
report and you said what yeah I mean he

755
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:43,020
he said he took he talks about it as if

756
00:29:46,970 --> 00:29:44,880
it's this is a scientific report and

757
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:46,980
he's using scientific data and he's not

758
00:29:52,130 --> 00:29:49,440
getting involved in the the UFO topic

759
00:29:53,149 --> 00:29:52,140
and yeah he if you look at Vol 2 where

760
00:29:55,970 --> 00:29:53,159
he's got all these different working

761
00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:55,980
papers he actually uses Paul devere's

762
00:30:00,769 --> 00:29:58,320
earthlight's book and a book by Jenny

763
00:30:02,990 --> 00:30:00,779
Randalls calls how you feels and how to

764
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:03,000
see them so he says he's tried to keep

765
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:04,980
out of that and yet he clearly has red

766
00:30:09,289 --> 00:30:07,520
bits of the UFO literature

767
00:30:11,210 --> 00:30:09,299
contradicting himself all the way

768
00:30:12,830 --> 00:30:11,220
through it so they're trying to stay

769
00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:12,840
away from the UFO Community but at the

770
00:30:17,690 --> 00:30:14,580
same time utilizing the UFO Community

771
00:30:19,070 --> 00:30:17,700
yeah and also I mean I mean I'm not as

772
00:30:21,529 --> 00:30:19,080
you know I'm not a believer in the

773
00:30:24,649 --> 00:30:21,539
Extraterrestrial hypothesis

774
00:30:26,269 --> 00:30:24,659
um but he he at one he says that he's

775
00:30:28,669 --> 00:30:26,279
trying to be open-minded and objective

776
00:30:30,769 --> 00:30:28,679
and he hasn't reached any um prejudicial

777
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:30,779
conclusions and then within 10 pages he

778
00:30:37,130 --> 00:30:33,600
said forget E.T there's no evidence of

779
00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:37,140
it and you just think okay but where's

780
00:30:41,810 --> 00:30:39,720
your evidence on the basis of what if

781
00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:41,820
you've been open-minded because if

782
00:30:45,710 --> 00:30:43,320
you've been truly open-minded you

783
00:30:46,570 --> 00:30:45,720
wouldn't reject that as a possibility I

784
00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:46,580
don't know

785
00:30:51,769 --> 00:30:49,200
when I was gonna say not not that early

786
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:51,779
but not that early not in fact not at

787
00:30:55,010 --> 00:30:53,039
all unless you've got conclusive

788
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:55,020
evidence to show that it's definitely

789
00:30:59,810 --> 00:30:56,880
not that so yeah

790
00:31:02,750 --> 00:30:59,820
yeah so I guess

791
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:02,760
going through the whole report

792
00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:04,200
he obviously you know we talked about

793
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,580
that he was gonna he had this

794
00:31:10,190 --> 00:31:07,679
preconceived conclusion and I guess

795
00:31:13,850 --> 00:31:10,200
that's that's what he came to he was

796
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:13,860
being paid to reach that conclusion yeah

797
00:31:18,010 --> 00:31:16,320
so you're doing it just as a job but you

798
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:18,020
obviously had um personal interest

799
00:31:22,490 --> 00:31:20,520
because if he didn't have personal

800
00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:22,500
interest he wouldn't have actually put

801
00:31:27,409 --> 00:31:25,799
together a 465 page four volume study he

802
00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:27,419
could have done it in six pages like the

803
00:31:32,210 --> 00:31:29,100
digital Winston Churchill you know the

804
00:31:33,769 --> 00:31:32,220
the one from the 1950s absolutely

805
00:31:36,110 --> 00:31:33,779
so let's go into some of the sections of

806
00:31:37,730 --> 00:31:36,120
what he did look at because it's not

807
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,740
like he didn't put some work in because

808
00:31:42,889 --> 00:31:39,600
he certainly did a lot worse and there

809
00:31:44,510 --> 00:31:42,899
were some very important uh aspects uh

810
00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:44,520
you know sections you know you mentioned

811
00:31:48,769 --> 00:31:47,100
plasma and black projects and that so

812
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:48,779
I'll leave it up to you which area we

813
00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:50,340
look at first but it'd be interesting to

814
00:31:53,870 --> 00:31:51,960
see your take on those well the thing on

815
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:53,880
the work I mean a lot of people sort of

816
00:31:58,850 --> 00:31:56,880
asked why is it called comdine why did

817
00:32:00,649 --> 00:31:58,860
they use that code name and I did ask

818
00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:00,659
Linda Unwin about that and she said well

819
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:02,700
whenever we do a project we just have a

820
00:32:06,350 --> 00:32:05,460
random computer thing that churns out a

821
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:06,360
word

822
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:08,100
so she said there's nothing significant

823
00:32:12,590 --> 00:32:10,200
about condyn it's just a word that was

824
00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:12,600
churned out but for the project because

825
00:32:16,130 --> 00:32:14,520
I mean lots of people said well is it

826
00:32:18,649 --> 00:32:16,140
something to do with Condon you know the

827
00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:18,659
American condom yeah

828
00:32:21,889 --> 00:32:20,940
um and if you look up as I did

829
00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:21,899
um

830
00:32:30,850 --> 00:32:27,840
Dictionary it actually means a severe

831
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:30,860
and well-deserved beating

832
00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:34,440
oh my goodness which is a bit of a

833
00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:35,880
coincidence isn't it because the the

834
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:37,620
Minister of Defense constantly refer to

835
00:32:41,810 --> 00:32:39,840
the subject as a problem that they need

836
00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:41,820
to deal with you know these irritating

837
00:32:45,830 --> 00:32:43,620
ufologists and the fact that we even

838
00:32:47,409 --> 00:32:45,840
have to waste any of our valuable time

839
00:32:49,789 --> 00:32:47,419
answering their Troublesome questions

840
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:49,799
it's odd that they decided to call this

841
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:52,679
the combine project I.E a severe beating

842
00:32:56,930 --> 00:32:55,140
wow so that and they've been given a

843
00:32:58,730 --> 00:32:56,940
severe beating as a result of all this

844
00:33:03,710 --> 00:32:58,740
coming out haven't they so it's all very

845
00:33:04,850 --> 00:33:03,720
amusing yeah so the points um Vinnie

846
00:33:06,049 --> 00:33:04,860
that you're talking about that I think

847
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:06,059
are important

848
00:33:10,370 --> 00:33:09,120
um is although he reaches that

849
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,380
conclusion and this is where you might

850
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:12,720
want to bring up that um document you

851
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:14,940
know the the two-page one this is this

852
00:33:20,990 --> 00:33:18,240
is a document that was written in 2000

853
00:33:22,970 --> 00:33:21,000
this is the reap the report form or oh

854
00:33:24,110 --> 00:33:22,980
no is this the right the unredacted

855
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:24,120
version of

856
00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:26,640
yeah yeah if you bring that up it's

857
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:28,620
actually it summarizes what's in the

858
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:31,440
report and this is what like can you

859
00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:32,640
imagine like all the different

860
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:34,860
Departments of the mod was sent a copy

861
00:33:39,470 --> 00:33:37,200
of this huge study

862
00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:39,480
and like any anyone working in the civil

863
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:41,340
service if you get send something that's

864
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:43,440
four volumes thick you're gonna think

865
00:33:46,909 --> 00:33:44,880
Buddy oh what am I gonna have time to

866
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:46,919
read this so this this is the covering

867
00:33:49,970 --> 00:33:48,120
node

868
00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:49,980
that summarizes

869
00:33:55,070 --> 00:33:52,980
what the study is about and as you can

870
00:33:57,529 --> 00:33:55,080
see it says the dis

871
00:33:59,810 --> 00:33:57,539
have been receiving copies of citing

872
00:34:02,029 --> 00:33:59,820
reports from secas for about 30 years

873
00:34:04,370 --> 00:34:02,039
and we've not never really looked at

874
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:04,380
them in any great detail

875
00:34:08,450 --> 00:34:06,720
um but it was obvious I mean don't

876
00:34:11,329 --> 00:34:08,460
forget when this study was commissioned

877
00:34:14,030 --> 00:34:11,339
1996 massive interest in the subject it

878
00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:14,040
was the 40th anniversary of Roswell 40th

879
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,260
anniversary of the Kenneth Arnold site

880
00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:18,480
team the media was constantly running I

881
00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:19,859
mean I was writing a lot of the stories

882
00:34:23,389 --> 00:34:21,240
at the time

883
00:34:25,070 --> 00:34:23,399
and it was you've got to see the fact

884
00:34:27,889 --> 00:34:25,080
that they commissioned this because of

885
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:27,899
their public interest in the subject so

886
00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:30,720
after putting this off and knocking on

887
00:34:36,290 --> 00:34:32,520
my head all these earlier attempts to

888
00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:36,300
get some funding finally they found 50

889
00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:38,700
000 pounds which is compared to what the

890
00:34:42,589 --> 00:34:40,379
American government is spending on this

891
00:34:44,990 --> 00:34:42,599
a drop in the ocean

892
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:45,000
and they basically paid for ROM to have

893
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,460
a computer and a personal assistant who

894
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:49,440
didn't put all these citing reports so

895
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:52,260
this is what they did did a sample of

896
00:34:56,210 --> 00:34:53,760
the reports and we'll have a look at the

897
00:34:58,190 --> 00:34:56,220
report in a minute

898
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:58,200
um so he spent two years and as you can

899
00:35:04,070 --> 00:35:01,200
see under low priority tasking

900
00:35:05,630 --> 00:35:04,080
compile the database so he chose a

901
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:05,640
10-year period and the interesting

902
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:08,880
period thing here is he chose 1987 to

903
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:11,040
1997 because he said that that was

904
00:35:14,210 --> 00:35:13,020
neatly on either side of the end of the

905
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:14,220
Cold War

906
00:35:20,510 --> 00:35:18,480
the Berlin Wall coming down so he had a

907
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:20,520
sample of reports from before and the

908
00:35:25,609 --> 00:35:23,040
sample reports from afterwards carried

909
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:25,619
out a computer analysis here's the

910
00:35:28,430 --> 00:35:26,640
report

911
00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:28,440
and you can see who it was copied to

912
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:29,640
above

913
00:35:32,569 --> 00:35:30,320
um

914
00:35:33,770 --> 00:35:32,579
should we go through that now or in a

915
00:35:36,349 --> 00:35:33,780
bit because we're going to come back to

916
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:36,359
that um let's come back to that yeah so

917
00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:39,480
if we can you see the the section two

918
00:35:44,089 --> 00:35:40,980
and section three

919
00:35:46,370 --> 00:35:44,099
so the main conclusion is the study

920
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:46,380
provides nothing of value

921
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:49,440
to the defense intelligence staff in our

922
00:35:53,089 --> 00:35:51,839
assessment of threat weapon systems so

923
00:35:55,310 --> 00:35:53,099
that all they're interested in is

924
00:35:57,170 --> 00:35:55,320
whatever these things are we don't

925
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:57,180
really care what they are but are they a

926
00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:00,480
threat are they Soviet are they Russian

927
00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:02,700
and the conclusion is no they're not

928
00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:04,680
Chinese they're not Russian they're not

929
00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:06,420
um Earthly of any kind

930
00:36:09,770 --> 00:36:08,160
taken together with other evidence we

931
00:36:11,810 --> 00:36:09,780
believe that many of the sightings can

932
00:36:14,270 --> 00:36:11,820
be explained as misreporting of man-made

933
00:36:17,650 --> 00:36:14,280
Vehicles aircraft bike project in some

934
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:17,660
cases natural But Not Unusual phenomena

935
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:20,880
and relatively rare and not completely

936
00:36:25,849 --> 00:36:23,040
understood phenomenal and this is where

937
00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:25,859
he goes deep dive into all this bizarre

938
00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:28,740
stuff about atmospheric plasmas Dusty

939
00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:30,900
plasmas Earth lights

940
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:33,240
this is what he really buys into all

941
00:36:38,450 --> 00:36:35,760
that to ex try and explain the residue

942
00:36:41,569 --> 00:36:38,460
of sightings that can't be easily

943
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:41,579
explained and he basically says um we

944
00:36:46,310 --> 00:36:43,140
don't know what these things are but we

945
00:36:48,050 --> 00:36:46,320
he thinks personally that the mod should

946
00:36:49,609 --> 00:36:48,060
do a lot more research on the plasma

947
00:36:52,609 --> 00:36:49,619
side and this is the bit that they

948
00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:52,619
initially redacted now Vinnie we were

949
00:36:55,069 --> 00:36:53,820
looking at a version of an earlier

950
00:36:56,810 --> 00:36:55,079
version of this where they wouldn't let

951
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:56,820
me see

952
00:36:59,690 --> 00:36:58,320
um what was

953
00:37:00,770 --> 00:36:59,700
um under paragraph

954
00:37:03,170 --> 00:37:00,780
um

955
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:03,180
three that's right I managed to get this

956
00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:05,280
reduction removed

957
00:37:09,530 --> 00:37:07,500
and as you can see he says in addition

958
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:09,540
to the miss the major conclusion which

959
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,220
is we don't need to be concerned with it

960
00:37:16,250 --> 00:37:13,920
anymore we can stop receiving reports he

961
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:16,260
says there was some subsidiary findings

962
00:37:21,230 --> 00:37:19,200
uh the potential explanations of UAP

963
00:37:22,849 --> 00:37:21,240
sightings the characteristics of natural

964
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,859
atmospheric phenomena and the

965
00:37:27,170 --> 00:37:24,720
consequences of sightings from aircraft

966
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:27,180
will be of interest to those responsible

967
00:37:32,329 --> 00:37:29,760
for flight safety and again this has now

968
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:32,339
come up again with all the American

969
00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:34,740
um yeah tasks for Stuff the near misses

970
00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:36,180
the air misses with these things that

971
00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:38,520
they can't explain

972
00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:40,260
um what are they

973
00:37:43,130 --> 00:37:41,820
um the characteristics of some of the

974
00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:43,140
Phenomenon with respect to their

975
00:37:46,910 --> 00:37:45,420
detection by radar systems will be of

976
00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:46,920
interest to air defense ground

977
00:37:50,930 --> 00:37:48,900
environment which if you remember is the

978
00:37:54,530 --> 00:37:50,940
other branch that we mentioned along

979
00:37:56,450 --> 00:37:54,540
with the RAF one yep the RAF one and

980
00:37:59,210 --> 00:37:56,460
flight safety

981
00:38:00,770 --> 00:37:59,220
um finally director general research um

982
00:38:03,170 --> 00:38:00,780
research and Technology will be

983
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,180
interested in those phenomena associated

984
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:06,000
with plasma formations which have

985
00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:08,640
potential applications to novel weapon

986
00:38:15,230 --> 00:38:12,060
technology so he he's basically saying

987
00:38:18,349 --> 00:38:15,240
if these things are some kind of natural

988
00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:18,359
atmospheric phenomena plasmas in the

989
00:38:23,329 --> 00:38:21,599
atmosphere that move around possibly

990
00:38:25,190 --> 00:38:23,339
they could be harnessed and used as

991
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:25,200
Battlefield weapons and we should be

992
00:38:30,530 --> 00:38:26,960
looking at how we could use those things

993
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,540
against a potential enemy like Russia

994
00:38:34,069 --> 00:38:32,400
you know so that's why he was

995
00:38:37,370 --> 00:38:34,079
recommending did they do anything with

996
00:38:40,370 --> 00:38:37,380
that I get that but surely within those

997
00:38:42,589 --> 00:38:40,380
potential rare phenomena surely that's

998
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,599
where UAP would fit as well but he

999
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:44,400
doesn't seem to want to go there he

1000
00:38:50,030 --> 00:38:46,920
doesn't want to go there no

1001
00:38:52,010 --> 00:38:50,040
and he then says um although we intend

1002
00:38:54,349 --> 00:38:52,020
to carry out no further work on this

1003
00:38:56,089 --> 00:38:54,359
subject we would value any comments that

1004
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,099
the people copied in would like to make

1005
00:39:00,530 --> 00:38:58,560
and then the the thing I loved at the

1006
00:39:02,750 --> 00:39:00,540
end that runs into page two he says

1007
00:39:06,290 --> 00:39:02,760
While most of the report is classified

1008
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:06,300
as only restricted UK Eyes Only we

1009
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:09,119
hardly need to remind addresses that's

1010
00:39:14,030 --> 00:39:11,280
people who've received a copy of it of

1011
00:39:16,490 --> 00:39:14,040
the media interest in this subject and

1012
00:39:19,310 --> 00:39:16,500
consequently this the sensitivity of

1013
00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:19,320
this report please protect the subject

1014
00:39:24,170 --> 00:39:21,660
accordingly and discuss the report only

1015
00:39:26,750 --> 00:39:24,180
with those who have a need to know

1016
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:26,760
that very very significant

1017
00:39:33,710 --> 00:39:29,640
so that they really need that kept you

1018
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,720
know secret yeah yeah wow I mean

1019
00:39:38,329 --> 00:39:35,760
this is the thing like we we're

1020
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:38,339
literally showing so many flaws in this

1021
00:39:44,690 --> 00:39:42,480
report oh that it's almost pointless it

1022
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:44,700
doesn't work let's have a look at what

1023
00:39:50,870 --> 00:39:47,220
the report the conclusions were based on

1024
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:50,880
bring up the um you you UFO report for

1025
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:53,359
yeah

1026
00:39:57,530 --> 00:39:56,160
and if you look in the files

1027
00:39:59,569 --> 00:39:57,540
um that have been released you can get

1028
00:40:03,170 --> 00:39:59,579
from the National Archives website this

1029
00:40:05,329 --> 00:40:03,180
is what he was using as his raw data so

1030
00:40:07,069 --> 00:40:05,339
this is a standard Report Form he says

1031
00:40:09,950 --> 00:40:07,079
that he filled one in himself in the

1032
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:09,960
1950s when he had this sighting when he

1033
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:11,700
was flying with the RAF

1034
00:40:17,569 --> 00:40:15,119
so this this was a form that the air

1035
00:40:19,190 --> 00:40:17,579
Ministry actually stole from the U.S Air

1036
00:40:21,530 --> 00:40:19,200
Force because it's based upon the U.S

1037
00:40:23,569 --> 00:40:21,540
Air Force um Pro former that they were

1038
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,579
using with project sign or Grudge or

1039
00:40:27,470 --> 00:40:25,440
something at the time yeah and as you

1040
00:40:29,329 --> 00:40:27,480
can see it's basically split into a list

1041
00:40:31,069 --> 00:40:29,339
of numbers

1042
00:40:34,190 --> 00:40:31,079
um date and time description of object

1043
00:40:36,109 --> 00:40:34,200
location how observed and what would

1044
00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:36,119
happen is a member of the public who'd

1045
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:38,220
seen something would phone either their

1046
00:40:43,130 --> 00:40:40,740
local RAF base or the mod in London

1047
00:40:45,290 --> 00:40:43,140
usually out of hours because people tend

1048
00:40:46,670 --> 00:40:45,300
to see UFOs late at night so all you

1049
00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:46,680
civil servants will have trooped off

1050
00:40:49,790 --> 00:40:48,180
home with the bowler hats and their

1051
00:40:52,190 --> 00:40:49,800
umbrellas at five o'clock in the

1052
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,200
afternoon and come back at nine o'clock

1053
00:40:57,290 --> 00:40:54,000
in the morning so they'd come back the

1054
00:40:59,150 --> 00:40:57,300
game di55 and the guy or woman who was

1055
00:41:02,450 --> 00:40:59,160
who was doing the secas

1056
00:41:04,609 --> 00:41:02,460
um desk job and every morning there'd be

1057
00:41:07,069 --> 00:41:04,619
a whole stack of these reports left and

1058
00:41:08,930 --> 00:41:07,079
left on the desk and the guy from di55

1059
00:41:10,130 --> 00:41:08,940
was moaning about this and saying bloody

1060
00:41:12,050 --> 00:41:10,140
hell every morning I used to get into

1061
00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:12,060
work before I could do anything there's

1062
00:41:17,870 --> 00:41:15,240
a huge pile of the UFO films waiting for

1063
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:17,880
the waiting for me I I had dozen and

1064
00:41:21,050 --> 00:41:19,440
another I had loads and loads of other

1065
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,060
tasks far more important than this one

1066
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:22,800
so I just sort of glanced at them over

1067
00:41:27,530 --> 00:41:25,680
the latest set of reports

1068
00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:27,540
put them in a file with filing cabinet

1069
00:41:30,170 --> 00:41:28,980
and forget about them basically because

1070
00:41:33,470 --> 00:41:30,180
there's no time

1071
00:41:36,589 --> 00:41:33,480
and and this is this is the quality

1072
00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:36,599
of the sighting reports I mean look at

1073
00:41:39,410 --> 00:41:37,260
it

1074
00:41:41,450 --> 00:41:39,420
description of object like a puff of

1075
00:41:43,569 --> 00:41:41,460
cloud then circular very light with a

1076
00:41:48,290 --> 00:41:43,579
red light flashing

1077
00:41:49,550 --> 00:41:48,300
excess it's very basic isn't it yeah

1078
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:49,560
so

1079
00:41:54,530 --> 00:41:50,880
um when he was doing this study he was

1080
00:41:56,329 --> 00:41:54,540
importing several thousand of these

1081
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,339
citing report forms and despite what

1082
00:42:00,589 --> 00:41:59,040
Nick Pope says as you can see it wasn't

1083
00:42:04,430 --> 00:42:00,599
investigated

1084
00:42:07,550 --> 00:42:04,440
very very few of them got anything went

1085
00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:07,560
any further than that form so someone

1086
00:42:12,589 --> 00:42:10,740
on the um man in the 24-hour desk at

1087
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:12,599
Whitehall some water Ringle and they'd

1088
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:14,880
fill in the form send it off to secas

1089
00:42:19,609 --> 00:42:17,520
and they looked at it and think

1090
00:42:21,050 --> 00:42:19,619
all right what can we do with this no

1091
00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:21,060
put it in the fire with all the others

1092
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:23,700
so that's the raw data that was sent to

1093
00:42:30,589 --> 00:42:26,760
di55 that's what Ron Hado used to to

1094
00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:30,599
create his database anyone

1095
00:42:35,690 --> 00:42:33,720
um doing that kind of database needs

1096
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:35,700
reliable information

1097
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:37,680
um if he'd done it properly he would

1098
00:42:41,870 --> 00:42:40,079
have taken a sample of citing reports

1099
00:42:43,550 --> 00:42:41,880
and he would have actually gone out and

1100
00:42:45,410 --> 00:42:43,560
interviewed the people who made those

1101
00:42:46,730 --> 00:42:45,420
reports and said right what was it where

1102
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:46,740
were you standing where were you looking

1103
00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:49,619
check it with an astronomy program were

1104
00:42:53,450 --> 00:42:51,300
there any balloons in the area of the

1105
00:42:55,069 --> 00:42:53,460
time oh there was we can eliminate that

1106
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,079
one then and he would have boiled it

1107
00:42:58,849 --> 00:42:57,359
down to a group of sightings maybe

1108
00:43:01,390 --> 00:42:58,859
rendelson you know some of the

1109
00:43:04,609 --> 00:43:01,400
Unexplained ones that yeah would

1110
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:04,619
evidential but he didn't do that

1111
00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:07,200
so if you think about it most ufologists

1112
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:08,760
whether you believe in aliens or not

1113
00:43:15,770 --> 00:43:11,760
will accept that from raw data raw

1114
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:15,780
sightings 90 of them are not UFOs they

1115
00:43:20,510 --> 00:43:19,200
are ifos potential ifos I don't think

1116
00:43:23,150 --> 00:43:20,520
anyone would disagree with that would

1117
00:43:26,450 --> 00:43:23,160
they uh that's that's bang on absolutely

1118
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:26,460
bang on so what Ron haddo was doing he

1119
00:43:34,250 --> 00:43:29,700
was inputting all this raw data into his

1120
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:34,260
database 90 of which was rubbish yeah so

1121
00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:35,640
you but you will have heard the phrase

1122
00:43:42,290 --> 00:43:38,520
garbage in garbage out so the so the

1123
00:43:44,089 --> 00:43:42,300
analysis he then ran on the database is

1124
00:43:46,609 --> 00:43:44,099
worthless because it's totally

1125
00:43:49,250 --> 00:43:46,619
contaminated with balloons aircraft

1126
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,260
ordinary things yeah you know to do a

1127
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:51,359
proper study you've got to eliminate all

1128
00:43:55,609 --> 00:43:53,040
those and you've got to look at the the

1129
00:43:58,069 --> 00:43:55,619
the percentage two percent three percent

1130
00:44:02,089 --> 00:43:58,079
four percent that are genuinely

1131
00:44:06,829 --> 00:44:03,890
yeah so this is what his conclusions

1132
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:06,839
were based on faulty data and it was

1133
00:44:12,109 --> 00:44:09,060
because he was operating in a top secret

1134
00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:12,119
environment he wasn't the the the

1135
00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:14,160
contract for the study was was never

1136
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:15,780
advertised because they didn't want the

1137
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:18,240
media to find out about it

1138
00:44:21,650 --> 00:44:19,680
um he wasn't allowed to talk to

1139
00:44:23,450 --> 00:44:21,660
scientists if he had done scientists

1140
00:44:24,950 --> 00:44:23,460
would have said ROM don't do it like

1141
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:24,960
you're planning to do it because the

1142
00:44:31,130 --> 00:44:27,420
conclusions are worthless

1143
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:31,140
um and all he had was those 22 files

1144
00:44:36,770 --> 00:44:35,040
that he had top security access to that

1145
00:44:39,950 --> 00:44:36,780
um weren't even top secret because he'd

1146
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:39,960
been copied him by secas yeah

1147
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:42,000
I suppose one other aspect I think one

1148
00:44:45,710 --> 00:44:43,440
section that I found really interesting

1149
00:44:47,450 --> 00:44:45,720
was obviously a couple will get to the

1150
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:47,460
black projects one in a bit I want to

1151
00:44:50,569 --> 00:44:48,720
talk about these near misses because

1152
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:50,579
that was quite there was quite a lot of

1153
00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:52,800
detail in that to a degree he had access

1154
00:44:56,750 --> 00:44:54,300
to a lot of stuff and a lot of those

1155
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,760
were kind of inconclusive

1156
00:44:59,270 --> 00:44:58,079
um so if you just if you can mention

1157
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:59,280
that for a couple of minutes I'm just

1158
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:01,200
going to take a bathroom break bear with

1159
00:45:08,690 --> 00:45:04,560
me yeah the near myth stuff yeah um I

1160
00:45:11,450 --> 00:45:08,700
think that's in volume three and he um

1161
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:11,460
he had access to I mean you can you can

1162
00:45:14,990 --> 00:45:13,380
access this material yourself it's the

1163
00:45:17,630 --> 00:45:15,000
civil aviation

1164
00:45:20,390 --> 00:45:17,640
Authority have published they used to

1165
00:45:22,910 --> 00:45:20,400
publish a list of all the um sightings

1166
00:45:24,890 --> 00:45:22,920
that had been made by aircrew Civil Air

1167
00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:24,900
crew they stopped doing that again

1168
00:45:29,690 --> 00:45:27,420
because they say it's it's again data

1169
00:45:30,890 --> 00:45:29,700
protection gdpr

1170
00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:30,900
um but

1171
00:45:34,609 --> 00:45:33,240
um the actual incidents where Crews

1172
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:34,619
report

1173
00:45:39,230 --> 00:45:37,440
um a cycling of something that they that

1174
00:45:41,569 --> 00:45:39,240
that's come within close proximity to

1175
00:45:43,970 --> 00:45:41,579
the aircraft they are all published and

1176
00:45:47,329 --> 00:45:43,980
they go on the um they go on the caa's

1177
00:45:48,770 --> 00:45:47,339
website and the the sample that he

1178
00:45:50,930 --> 00:45:48,780
looked at there was what there was a

1179
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:50,940
sighting from Gap week airport which is

1180
00:45:54,349 --> 00:45:53,040
interesting given the fact that there

1181
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:54,359
was the incident

1182
00:45:59,390 --> 00:45:57,119
only a few years ago where Gatwick

1183
00:46:00,829 --> 00:45:59,400
um was effective with clues for 48 hours

1184
00:46:03,290 --> 00:46:00,839
when

1185
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:03,300
um you remember the Drone case where

1186
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:05,760
supposedly two low-level drones were

1187
00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:08,880
seen over Gatwick so Gatwick is an

1188
00:46:13,309 --> 00:46:10,740
interesting place where there's been

1189
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:13,319
lots of of these sightings over the

1190
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:14,400
years

1191
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:16,319
um so that's they did look at two

1192
00:46:20,089 --> 00:46:18,000
sightings at Gatwick that were reported

1193
00:46:23,329 --> 00:46:20,099
as near misses and the Manchester case

1194
00:46:25,910 --> 00:46:23,339
as well that we mentioned earlier

1195
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:25,920
so yeah it's definitely a

1196
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:28,079
we need more from the report that's what

1197
00:46:31,490 --> 00:46:29,940
I mean I think they could have

1198
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:31,500
investigated them more I mean I guess

1199
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:32,880
they

1200
00:46:38,089 --> 00:46:36,000
time was a thing and lack of

1201
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:38,099
being asked about it basically yeah well

1202
00:46:42,349 --> 00:46:39,839
yeah I mean the original terms of

1203
00:46:44,990 --> 00:46:42,359
reference was to look at some specific

1204
00:46:47,630 --> 00:46:45,000
incidents you know like rendersham sure

1205
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:47,640
anything I mean he only talks about one

1206
00:46:52,730 --> 00:46:49,920
particular case the radar case

1207
00:46:54,109 --> 00:46:52,740
in the entire radar section and we were

1208
00:46:55,609 --> 00:46:54,119
talking about this earlier Vinnie

1209
00:46:57,890 --> 00:46:55,619
weren't we if you look at the section on

1210
00:47:01,309 --> 00:46:57,900
radar he basically says

1211
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:01,319
um whatever uaps are they're not seen on

1212
00:47:06,650 --> 00:47:03,839
air defense Radars and to him that

1213
00:47:09,290 --> 00:47:06,660
proved his contention that there weren't

1214
00:47:11,089 --> 00:47:09,300
solid objects clearly there's something

1215
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:11,099
but he's saying the fact that they're

1216
00:47:15,050 --> 00:47:12,960
not being detected by radar suggests

1217
00:47:17,089 --> 00:47:15,060
that the natural atmospheric phenomena

1218
00:47:19,790 --> 00:47:17,099
are not craft

1219
00:47:21,650 --> 00:47:19,800
like like um you'd expect an intruder

1220
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:21,660
aircraft to be picked up these clearly

1221
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:23,280
aren't craft that's why there isn't any

1222
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:26,280
good radar data on them

1223
00:47:31,250 --> 00:47:29,040
um but again

1224
00:47:33,530 --> 00:47:31,260
that that's that's not a conclusion

1225
00:47:36,530 --> 00:47:33,540
based upon proper scientific evidence

1226
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:36,540
and and the the the the the the radar

1227
00:47:41,390 --> 00:47:38,480
section is the one that's got the most

1228
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:41,400
redactions and again if you want to look

1229
00:47:44,690 --> 00:47:43,440
at this in a conspiracy sort of way you

1230
00:47:45,650 --> 00:47:44,700
might think oh what they're trying to

1231
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:45,660
hide

1232
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:48,060
but what what the reason why they've

1233
00:47:54,290 --> 00:47:50,400
taken so much material out is because it

1234
00:47:56,089 --> 00:47:54,300
reveals the weakness of our radar

1235
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,099
um in the the cover is not very

1236
00:48:00,890 --> 00:47:58,800
effective it's the switch The Radars off

1237
00:48:03,710 --> 00:48:00,900
at certain times of day I mean the

1238
00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:03,720
rental incident for instance some of the

1239
00:48:07,790 --> 00:48:05,520
documents about that

1240
00:48:10,990 --> 00:48:07,800
um reveal that the radar was switched

1241
00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:13,550
I mean maybe they didn't want it um

1242
00:48:16,809 --> 00:48:15,720
interfered with by Santa Claus and the

1243
00:48:19,809 --> 00:48:16,819
reindeer

1244
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:19,819
North Pole or sort of thing but

1245
00:48:26,089 --> 00:48:22,079
embarrassing things like that you don't

1246
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:26,099
want your enemy the Russians yeah to

1247
00:48:31,370 --> 00:48:29,160
know the the capabilities of our radar

1248
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:31,380
to detect their Intruder aircraft and

1249
00:48:35,329 --> 00:48:32,940
that's why those sections of the report

1250
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:35,339
have been redacted and you can't really

1251
00:48:39,410 --> 00:48:37,680
argue about that can you because it's

1252
00:48:41,809 --> 00:48:39,420
not it's like you don't reveal the

1253
00:48:45,050 --> 00:48:41,819
identity of our spies because they'll

1254
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:45,060
get assassinated if we do so foi can

1255
00:48:49,309 --> 00:48:47,040
only go so far

1256
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:49,319
no absolutely I just want to highlight

1257
00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:51,839
that a complete Schoolboy error is that

1258
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:53,700
I forgot to link the condiment report in

1259
00:48:58,490 --> 00:48:56,640
the description and I will after this

1260
00:49:00,349 --> 00:48:58,500
finishes I will link it below so

1261
00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:00,359
everyone can have a look funnily enough

1262
00:49:03,710 --> 00:49:01,980
it isn't the easiest thing to find

1263
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:03,720
because I was actually I've got another

1264
00:49:08,510 --> 00:49:06,720
computer which I use mobile a laptop and

1265
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:08,520
I was trying to look through stuff today

1266
00:49:13,010 --> 00:49:11,400
and it it throws you around some weird

1267
00:49:16,190 --> 00:49:13,020
links to actually get to the download

1268
00:49:18,050 --> 00:49:16,200
for the full report you get like parts

1269
00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:18,060
of it so Jonathan thank you for bringing

1270
00:49:22,609 --> 00:49:19,920
that up I just saw your comment I will

1271
00:49:24,530 --> 00:49:22,619
link that uh after the the videos ended

1272
00:49:26,450 --> 00:49:24,540
uh my apologies this is a key Point

1273
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:26,460
Vinnie isn't it because what happened

1274
00:49:28,490 --> 00:49:27,839
was

1275
00:49:30,890 --> 00:49:28,500
um

1276
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:30,900
there were so many foi requests for the

1277
00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:34,319
report after we got it released

1278
00:49:37,609 --> 00:49:35,640
um they couldn't release it in paper

1279
00:49:40,010 --> 00:49:37,619
format because it's such a huge document

1280
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:40,020
so what they got what happened was and

1281
00:49:44,930 --> 00:49:42,720
the National Archives scanned it

1282
00:49:47,089 --> 00:49:44,940
the redacted version of it so there is a

1283
00:49:48,829 --> 00:49:47,099
big long URL where you can just click on

1284
00:49:51,290 --> 00:49:48,839
it and you can get a download and it's

1285
00:49:54,849 --> 00:49:51,300
from the National Archives yeah

1286
00:49:58,430 --> 00:49:54,859
um so that that's what happened but

1287
00:50:00,710 --> 00:49:58,440
this shall we now move on to what we've

1288
00:50:02,329 --> 00:50:00,720
discovered well just before you do one

1289
00:50:03,890 --> 00:50:02,339
thing I will say about that is when you

1290
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:03,900
find it on the National Archives it

1291
00:50:07,849 --> 00:50:06,180
gives you the executive summary volumes

1292
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:07,859
one two and three but when you click

1293
00:50:12,349 --> 00:50:10,079
into volume one it then breaks it down

1294
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:12,359
again into about another eight sections

1295
00:50:17,690 --> 00:50:15,839
so it's it's really complicated and all

1296
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:17,700
like you have to piece it together

1297
00:50:23,710 --> 00:50:20,400
yourself almost it's it's very bizarre

1298
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:23,720
so but I will link that

1299
00:50:28,190 --> 00:50:26,220
the original version I've got has got

1300
00:50:29,569 --> 00:50:28,200
pull out maps and all sorts so yeah I

1301
00:50:32,510 --> 00:50:29,579
don't know how you would get them in a

1302
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:32,520
in a scanned version of it what you do

1303
00:50:35,809 --> 00:50:34,319
if you Google the condo report there are

1304
00:50:37,670 --> 00:50:35,819
National Archive links that will go

1305
00:50:39,410 --> 00:50:37,680
straight to a PDF but you'll find that

1306
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:39,420
it's there's eight pages and then

1307
00:50:43,069 --> 00:50:40,800
another one will be nine pages you're

1308
00:50:45,109 --> 00:50:43,079
like wait a minute this is a a really

1309
00:50:46,190 --> 00:50:45,119
long document and so yeah you've got to

1310
00:50:48,109 --> 00:50:46,200
be careful because you might miss

1311
00:50:50,569 --> 00:50:48,119
something if you don't know what you're

1312
00:50:52,910 --> 00:50:50,579
looking for so

1313
00:50:56,450 --> 00:50:54,290
I mean what are the other little

1314
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:56,460
interesting little points that that's

1315
00:51:00,770 --> 00:50:57,960
often not mentioned you know there is

1316
00:51:03,170 --> 00:51:00,780
this idea that's been promoted by Robert

1317
00:51:05,210 --> 00:51:03,180
Hastings in America that there's a

1318
00:51:07,370 --> 00:51:05,220
connection between nuclear bases and

1319
00:51:11,329 --> 00:51:07,380
sensitive nuclear storage facilities in

1320
00:51:13,370 --> 00:51:11,339
UF uaps well Hado actually there's a

1321
00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:13,380
there's there's part of I think it's vol

1322
00:51:16,670 --> 00:51:15,300
3 where he spends a lot of time and

1323
00:51:18,829 --> 00:51:16,680
attention on this

1324
00:51:21,049 --> 00:51:18,839
and he looks at all this data that he's

1325
00:51:22,849 --> 00:51:21,059
put together about in the UK and he says

1326
00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:22,859
is there any evidence that these things

1327
00:51:28,130 --> 00:51:25,380
are seen around aldermasten for instance

1328
00:51:30,650 --> 00:51:28,140
and around some of the sensitive um RAF

1329
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:30,660
right um Royal Navy facilities where

1330
00:51:35,390 --> 00:51:33,359
there's nuclear weapons not found and

1331
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,400
basically he says there's no evidence at

1332
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:38,160
all from the UK data and he says there's

1333
00:51:42,710 --> 00:51:40,740
a few examples where there are more site

1334
00:51:44,390 --> 00:51:42,720
there's a cluster of sightings I think

1335
00:51:46,549 --> 00:51:44,400
around one of these sensitive facilities

1336
00:51:48,890 --> 00:51:46,559
and he says the simple answer to that is

1337
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:48,900
is that they are guarded 24 hours a day

1338
00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:51,359
by people who are on the lookout for

1339
00:51:57,049 --> 00:51:54,599
anything unusual therefore if

1340
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:57,059
there will be occasions in which

1341
00:52:02,089 --> 00:51:59,040
um security guards and Ministry defense

1342
00:52:03,890 --> 00:52:02,099
police see and Report odd things in the

1343
00:52:06,109 --> 00:52:03,900
sky but that's simply because of the

1344
00:52:07,069 --> 00:52:06,119
fact that that's what they're employing

1345
00:52:08,109 --> 00:52:07,079
to do

1346
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:08,119
yeah

1347
00:52:11,450 --> 00:52:09,839
there's going to be a lot of them that

1348
00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:11,460
just simply won't say anything because I

1349
00:52:15,470 --> 00:52:13,140
feel like what we discussed earlier fear

1350
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,480
of ridicule and and all that yeah but we

1351
00:52:19,069 --> 00:52:17,520
were talking about air crew there so um

1352
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:19,079
security guards

1353
00:52:24,530 --> 00:52:21,240
um memory police are going to be much

1354
00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:24,540
more uh inclined to report odd things in

1355
00:52:29,870 --> 00:52:28,500
the sky that could be you know threats

1356
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,880
but then you look at the cases like

1357
00:52:32,750 --> 00:52:31,440
renderson when we know that that was a

1358
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,760
nuclear

1359
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:35,040
storage wasn't it so you know oh well

1360
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:36,720
they can't deny and they can't confirm

1361
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:38,880
that the nuclear bombs were still well

1362
00:52:42,109 --> 00:52:40,559
maybe that's the case along a lot of

1363
00:52:44,049 --> 00:52:42,119
these places you know maybe it's it's

1364
00:52:47,150 --> 00:52:44,059
like well we can't say anything because

1365
00:52:50,089 --> 00:52:47,160
I don't know it's sensitive isn't it um

1366
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:50,099
yeah and speculative to a degree so we

1367
00:52:53,690 --> 00:52:51,960
have to be careful where

1368
00:52:55,130 --> 00:52:53,700
um do you want to move on to the Black

1369
00:52:56,930 --> 00:52:55,140
Project section

1370
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:56,940
yes I mean this is the bit that

1371
00:53:02,150 --> 00:52:59,520
intrigues me yeah um I mean we're back

1372
00:53:04,370 --> 00:53:02,160
to Calvin here I'm I'm absolutely

1373
00:53:05,870 --> 00:53:04,380
convinced that

1374
00:53:08,030 --> 00:53:05,880
um there's a section on Black Project

1375
00:53:10,430 --> 00:53:08,040
aircraft where basically he talks about

1376
00:53:13,970 --> 00:53:10,440
the ones we know about

1377
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:13,980
um so he talks about the um the the uh

1378
00:53:19,849 --> 00:53:16,619
obviously called the SR-71 yeah section

1379
00:53:21,290 --> 00:53:19,859
one yeah the Blackbird yeah so he talks

1380
00:53:24,049 --> 00:53:21,300
about that and there's there's an image

1381
00:53:25,730 --> 00:53:24,059
of that it talks about the B2 bomber and

1382
00:53:28,069 --> 00:53:25,740
the f117

1383
00:53:29,569 --> 00:53:28,079
um all of which are in the public domain

1384
00:53:31,549 --> 00:53:29,579
and were used in the Gulf War but he

1385
00:53:33,650 --> 00:53:31,559
talks about two other

1386
00:53:36,950 --> 00:53:33,660
secret programs

1387
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:36,960
and he specifies them program one or is

1388
00:53:42,109 --> 00:53:39,720
it program two and program three and all

1389
00:53:44,089 --> 00:53:42,119
those sections are redacted and under

1390
00:53:47,089 --> 00:53:44,099
Section 27 of the Freedom of Information

1391
00:53:49,730 --> 00:53:47,099
Act which is international relations so

1392
00:53:53,329 --> 00:53:49,740
what that is it's secret information

1393
00:53:56,030 --> 00:53:53,339
about blight project aircraft prototype

1394
00:53:59,329 --> 00:53:56,040
aircraft that have been flown by the US

1395
00:54:02,210 --> 00:53:59,339
Air Force or the CIA that have any

1396
00:54:04,730 --> 00:54:02,220
effectively says they are visited

1397
00:54:07,790 --> 00:54:04,740
um the uks and have been seen and

1398
00:54:08,990 --> 00:54:07,800
reported as UFOs and there is one I

1399
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:09,000
don't know whether you can find the page

1400
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:11,280
but there's one section that looks as if

1401
00:54:18,049 --> 00:54:13,440
you could almost like Drop The Calvin

1402
00:54:20,750 --> 00:54:18,059
photo into it yeah one of these um

1403
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:20,760
uh this is me speculating but I I just

1404
00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:21,599
think

1405
00:54:25,730 --> 00:54:23,880
um well you say that if you speculating

1406
00:54:28,370 --> 00:54:25,740
but if you piece that together with what

1407
00:54:30,890 --> 00:54:28,380
you a discussion you've had with di55c

1408
00:54:33,470 --> 00:54:30,900
yeah we won't won't go into detail on

1409
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:33,480
that that fits exactly with it as well

1410
00:54:38,450 --> 00:54:36,480
so it's not just we want it to be Calvin

1411
00:54:40,670 --> 00:54:38,460
it's well it makes sense that it's

1412
00:54:42,049 --> 00:54:40,680
Calvin it points to a few things that

1413
00:54:45,890 --> 00:54:42,059
we've

1414
00:54:48,589 --> 00:54:45,900
leave it like that you know the people

1415
00:54:50,270 --> 00:54:48,599
that said to me you know how can you

1416
00:54:52,910 --> 00:54:50,280
make out that this thing in the Calvin

1417
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:52,920
photograph is is is is sort of secret

1418
00:54:57,770 --> 00:54:55,260
technology it can't possibly be you know

1419
00:55:00,530 --> 00:54:57,780
we don't you'd know about it so

1420
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,540
why then are these two programs redacted

1421
00:55:06,170 --> 00:55:02,640
from a report that was released in 2006

1422
00:55:08,450 --> 00:55:06,180
if we if it can't possibly exist

1423
00:55:10,730 --> 00:55:08,460
it doesn't make any sense at any level

1424
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,740
exactly because even if Calvin is one of

1425
00:55:15,170 --> 00:55:12,240
them there's still another one as well

1426
00:55:16,430 --> 00:55:15,180
yeah and then the B2 bomber and the f117

1427
00:55:19,309 --> 00:55:16,440
didn't just suddenly spring into

1428
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:19,319
existence like that you know the the all

1429
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:21,119
sorts of different prototype versions of

1430
00:55:24,829 --> 00:55:23,760
of these aircraft some of which probably

1431
00:55:27,470 --> 00:55:24,839
didn't

1432
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:27,480
um perform very well so they just tried

1433
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:28,559
it out

1434
00:55:32,270 --> 00:55:30,780
you know tested it somewhere it crashed

1435
00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:32,280
into the sea or something and then they

1436
00:55:36,109 --> 00:55:33,839
buried it in the desert and forgot about

1437
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:36,119
it exactly prototypes that didn't work

1438
00:55:43,549 --> 00:55:39,839
quite simple it must happen uh you know

1439
00:55:45,890 --> 00:55:43,559
so yeah and also this we're talking here

1440
00:55:47,390 --> 00:55:45,900
about Hypersonic aircraft I don't think

1441
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:47,400
for one minute that the object in the

1442
00:55:50,690 --> 00:55:48,720
Calvin

1443
00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:50,700
um photograph is a Hypersonic aircraft I

1444
00:55:56,990 --> 00:55:52,740
mean the whole Aurora thing is just a a

1445
00:55:59,930 --> 00:55:57,000
word like UFO the exact wholesale I mean

1446
00:56:02,390 --> 00:55:59,940
it could be an unmanned aerial vehicle a

1447
00:56:04,549 --> 00:56:02,400
UAV you know a drone of some kind of

1448
00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:04,559
prototype drone you know that they were

1449
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:06,480
testing out and someone has suggested

1450
00:56:10,510 --> 00:56:08,880
that it could be an Airborne radar

1451
00:56:14,210 --> 00:56:10,520
platform

1452
00:56:16,430 --> 00:56:14,220
yeah like a like a um a blimp that was

1453
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:16,440
being used as an aerial platform for

1454
00:56:20,750 --> 00:56:18,780
radar for some kind of exercise

1455
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:20,760
there's all kinds of explanations for it

1456
00:56:24,890 --> 00:56:23,160
it doesn't have to be some super duper

1457
00:56:28,010 --> 00:56:24,900
technology that was able to sort of Zoom

1458
00:56:29,530 --> 00:56:28,020
away at some fantastic speed you know we

1459
00:56:32,450 --> 00:56:29,540
don't know that that's what's happened

1460
00:56:34,250 --> 00:56:32,460
well that's the thing you know that's a

1461
00:56:36,290 --> 00:56:34,260
whole nother conversation which we'll

1462
00:56:38,569 --> 00:56:36,300
probably cover again maybe at the end of

1463
00:56:40,010 --> 00:56:38,579
the year or early next year when uh

1464
00:56:41,870 --> 00:56:40,020
investigation

1465
00:56:44,030 --> 00:56:41,880
when we have more to report on because

1466
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:44,040
yeah it is

1467
00:56:48,170 --> 00:56:46,319
I mentioned this earlier on a on a chat

1468
00:56:50,870 --> 00:56:48,180
I had to someone that there are many

1469
00:56:53,210 --> 00:56:50,880
lines of or many avenues that we have to

1470
00:56:55,430 --> 00:56:53,220
look on with the investigation and it's

1471
00:56:57,410 --> 00:56:55,440
time consuming we do what we do we ask

1472
00:56:58,849 --> 00:56:57,420
the questions but we wait for people to

1473
00:57:00,770 --> 00:56:58,859
come back to us we wait for this and

1474
00:57:02,930 --> 00:57:00,780
that and it's it's massively time

1475
00:57:05,690 --> 00:57:02,940
consuming oh yeah and people want

1476
00:57:08,210 --> 00:57:05,700
answers like immediately it took us 13

1477
00:57:09,650 --> 00:57:08,220
years to to actually get

1478
00:57:11,450 --> 00:57:09,660
um the image

1479
00:57:13,370 --> 00:57:11,460
you know I'm sorry folks but you might

1480
00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:13,380
have to wait another 13 years before you

1481
00:57:18,109 --> 00:57:15,900
get anywhere

1482
00:57:19,490 --> 00:57:18,119
yeah so you know I've been getting this

1483
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:19,500
a lot recently people like looking at

1484
00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:20,700
the watches obviously going hey it's

1485
00:57:24,530 --> 00:57:22,319
been a couple of months let's uh what

1486
00:57:27,410 --> 00:57:24,540
what's going on with Calvin it's like ah

1487
00:57:28,910 --> 00:57:27,420
yeah well I I hear your frustrations But

1488
00:57:30,829 --> 00:57:28,920
please understand that the

1489
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:30,839
investigations are

1490
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:32,400
you know we're dealing with something so

1491
00:57:38,329 --> 00:57:35,040
old with very few people that were

1492
00:57:40,130 --> 00:57:38,339
either there or know anything so

1493
00:57:42,049 --> 00:57:40,140
please anybody that's listening or

1494
00:57:44,630 --> 00:57:42,059
watching just bear with us because we're

1495
00:57:47,329 --> 00:57:44,640
doing the best we can and a lot of the a

1496
00:57:49,130 --> 00:57:47,339
lot of the key people who um would have

1497
00:57:51,470 --> 00:57:49,140
been able to tell us something are dead

1498
00:57:54,250 --> 00:57:51,480
absolutely and we keep coming across

1499
00:57:56,510 --> 00:57:54,260
that a bit too often unfortunately

1500
00:57:59,390 --> 00:57:56,520
we feel like we've got

1501
00:58:00,950 --> 00:57:59,400
a few steps down a line or an Avenue of

1502
00:58:03,049 --> 00:58:00,960
investigation and

1503
00:58:04,609 --> 00:58:03,059
person's debt we have to then go down

1504
00:58:07,490 --> 00:58:04,619
another one and and these are taking

1505
00:58:10,069 --> 00:58:07,500
weeks at a time so it's just it's

1506
00:58:11,809 --> 00:58:10,079
gutting and it's very very disheartening

1507
00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:11,819
to a degree but I mean we're still going

1508
00:58:16,190 --> 00:58:14,220
to keep going but please bear with us um

1509
00:58:18,530 --> 00:58:16,200
so yeah we'll get to that another day

1510
00:58:20,450 --> 00:58:18,540
let's so the Black Project thing I think

1511
00:58:22,370 --> 00:58:20,460
is is fascinating when it comes to

1512
00:58:23,530 --> 00:58:22,380
condyn

1513
00:58:25,730 --> 00:58:23,540
um

1514
00:58:27,650 --> 00:58:25,740
rendlesham let's we keep mentioning

1515
00:58:29,450 --> 00:58:27,660
Randall Sherman obviously it's like it's

1516
00:58:32,510 --> 00:58:29,460
you know it's the biggest case in the UK

1517
00:58:35,230 --> 00:58:32,520
but it wasn't touched upon enough let's

1518
00:58:37,490 --> 00:58:35,240
say in the report

1519
00:58:39,530 --> 00:58:37,500
yeah it throws up so many questions

1520
00:58:40,549 --> 00:58:39,540
really to me and I think to a lot of

1521
00:58:43,609 --> 00:58:40,559
people

1522
00:58:45,470 --> 00:58:43,619
he mentions it once in passing in the

1523
00:58:47,329 --> 00:58:45,480
volume two which is the one with the

1524
00:58:49,609 --> 00:58:47,339
working papers and I think it's in the

1525
00:58:52,549 --> 00:58:49,619
section under electromagnetic field

1526
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:52,559
effects on human beings so there's a

1527
00:58:56,030 --> 00:58:53,760
whole section in there about what

1528
00:58:58,010 --> 00:58:56,040
happens it he's talking from the plasma

1529
00:58:59,589 --> 00:58:58,020
point of view so he's saying like if

1530
00:59:02,690 --> 00:58:59,599
these plasmas exist and don't forget

1531
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:02,700
this the plasma Theory

1532
00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:06,720
is as unprovable as eating visitations

1533
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:08,520
yep it's just he doesn't want to talk

1534
00:59:13,609 --> 00:59:11,520
about E.T so he prefers plasma

1535
00:59:15,950 --> 00:59:13,619
um he basically says if these plasmas

1536
00:59:17,690 --> 00:59:15,960
exist and his theory is that meteors are

1537
00:59:20,450 --> 00:59:17,700
impacting on the um

1538
00:59:23,450 --> 00:59:20,460
the planet and scientists know that

1539
00:59:25,789 --> 00:59:23,460
meteor impacts create Plasma in the

1540
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:25,799
upper atmosphere this is proven you know

1541
00:59:28,370 --> 00:59:27,119
I mean there's all these photographs

1542
00:59:30,410 --> 00:59:28,380
that have been taken now from the

1543
00:59:32,450 --> 00:59:30,420
International Space Station of these

1544
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:32,460
amazing plasmas above thunderstorms

1545
00:59:37,309 --> 00:59:35,040
they're called blue jets and Sprites and

1546
00:59:39,230 --> 00:59:37,319
they are amazing they look like UFOs you

1547
00:59:40,609 --> 00:59:39,240
know they're just sort of we don't

1548
00:59:42,589 --> 00:59:40,619
understand what they are and they're up

1549
00:59:44,809 --> 00:59:42,599
in the atmosphere and these kinds of

1550
00:59:48,589 --> 00:59:44,819
plasmas we know exist

1551
00:59:50,750 --> 00:59:48,599
or for them to explain UFO reports he's

1552
00:59:52,970 --> 00:59:50,760
talking about plasmas in the ionosphere

1553
00:59:54,230 --> 00:59:52,980
and the mesosphere what how do you

1554
00:59:57,049 --> 00:59:54,240
explain the things that are seen at

1555
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:57,059
ground level exactly yeah and if you

1556
01:00:01,490 --> 00:59:59,280
came close to something like that it you

1557
01:00:03,530 --> 01:00:01,500
would literally be fried you know you're

1558
01:00:05,210 --> 01:00:03,540
talking about vast amounts of energy you

1559
01:00:07,309 --> 01:00:05,220
know so where are these things why has

1560
01:00:09,710 --> 01:00:07,319
no one ever measured them or at cap or

1561
01:00:11,329 --> 01:00:09,720
or reported them maybe they have I don't

1562
01:00:12,789 --> 01:00:11,339
know and they've not lived to tell the

1563
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:12,799
tale but

1564
01:00:16,430 --> 01:00:14,880
these things you know this is similar to

1565
01:00:17,990 --> 01:00:16,440
what we experience in Colombia and the

1566
01:00:20,210 --> 01:00:18,000
investigation we did there this there's

1567
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:20,220
so little known about it around the

1568
01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:21,839
world you know you look at project hair

1569
01:00:26,210 --> 01:00:24,180
style and in Norway with uh you know the

1570
01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:26,220
work gone out there since the early 80s

1571
01:00:29,870 --> 01:00:28,200
and there's still no no really any

1572
01:00:32,089 --> 01:00:29,880
further to forming any kind of concise

1573
01:00:34,250 --> 01:00:32,099
conclusion well you you mentioned

1574
01:00:37,490 --> 01:00:34,260
hesterlin but in hestyle and one of the

1575
01:00:39,710 --> 01:00:37,500
theories is the same as um Ron haddo's

1576
01:00:41,450 --> 01:00:39,720
Theory you know Dusty plasmas which are

1577
01:00:44,390 --> 01:00:41,460
these sort of

1578
01:00:46,789 --> 01:00:44,400
um like Coal Energy that sort of sucks

1579
01:00:48,530 --> 01:00:46,799
into it dust from the atmosphere and

1580
01:00:50,990 --> 01:00:48,540
then it's somehow sort of sustains

1581
01:00:53,390 --> 01:00:51,000
itself so this this is I mean if you

1582
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:53,400
look up if you're interested just Google

1583
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:56,160
Dusty plasma it's something that plasma

1584
01:00:59,809 --> 01:00:57,839
physicists are talking about is the

1585
01:01:02,630 --> 01:00:59,819
theoretical concept they do exist but

1586
01:01:05,089 --> 01:01:02,640
whether they could explain things like

1587
01:01:07,730 --> 01:01:05,099
the hair style and lies is something

1588
01:01:08,650 --> 01:01:07,740
that needs lots and lots of scientific

1589
01:01:11,569 --> 01:01:08,660
um

1590
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:11,579
investment to actually say whether it

1591
01:01:15,289 --> 01:01:13,200
could be something entirely different

1592
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:15,299
that's creating those lights that you

1593
01:01:19,609 --> 01:01:17,220
saw in Colombia and that have been

1594
01:01:21,650 --> 01:01:19,619
reported in Norway and other places

1595
01:01:23,530 --> 01:01:21,660
yeah I mean the whole Earth-like thing

1596
01:01:25,490 --> 01:01:23,540
you know lights created by

1597
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:25,500
piezoelectricity you know from rocks

1598
01:01:29,390 --> 01:01:26,880
crushing against each other in

1599
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:29,400
geological faults which is another thing

1600
01:01:36,410 --> 01:01:31,680
that another thing he talks about in the

1601
01:01:38,930 --> 01:01:36,420
report yeah so this is the thing if

1602
01:01:41,390 --> 01:01:38,940
it's crazy that is

1603
01:01:43,849 --> 01:01:41,400
just doesn't want to say UAP or UFO it

1604
01:01:46,670 --> 01:01:43,859
just always points to something else and

1605
01:01:49,609 --> 01:01:46,680
it's quite blase about it you know this

1606
01:01:52,010 --> 01:01:49,619
is such a flawed report

1607
01:01:53,870 --> 01:01:52,020
before I read about it

1608
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:53,880
is flawed but it's an important

1609
01:01:59,569 --> 01:01:57,599
historical document absolutely 100 yeah

1610
01:02:03,890 --> 01:01:59,579
the fact that the British government

1611
01:02:06,890 --> 01:02:03,900
used 50 000 pounds of public money uh to

1612
01:02:09,049 --> 01:02:06,900
do a study of UFOs or uaps at a time

1613
01:02:10,609 --> 01:02:09,059
when they were saying in Parliament in

1614
01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:10,619
response if you wrote to a letter to

1615
01:02:13,670 --> 01:02:12,240
them at that time and said what are you

1616
01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:13,680
doing on this subject they'd say nothing

1617
01:02:18,589 --> 01:02:15,599
we haven't spent any time and energy on

1618
01:02:20,569 --> 01:02:18,599
it which is untrue so the document

1619
01:02:23,030 --> 01:02:20,579
itself is

1620
01:02:24,410 --> 01:02:23,040
in whatever you think of the conclusions

1621
01:02:27,049 --> 01:02:24,420
and whatever you think of the

1622
01:02:29,770 --> 01:02:27,059
methodology and they put and the what it

1623
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:29,780
was for the fact that that document

1624
01:02:36,170 --> 01:02:32,880
exists or existed

1625
01:02:38,030 --> 01:02:36,180
um is it surely in historical terms you

1626
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:38,040
know like the condom report in America

1627
01:02:44,030 --> 01:02:40,799
or the the report Project Blue Book it's

1628
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:44,040
it's it's part of the history of the

1629
01:02:46,789 --> 01:02:45,839
subject regardless of what you think

1630
01:02:49,730 --> 01:02:46,799
about

1631
01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:49,740
um how useful it is in the same way that

1632
01:02:54,109 --> 01:02:51,540
you know it was if you think about it

1633
01:02:55,730 --> 01:02:54,119
going back it's it's probably the last

1634
01:02:57,710 --> 01:02:55,740
time that the British government will

1635
01:02:59,329 --> 01:02:57,720
ever spend any time and attention to

1636
01:03:03,170 --> 01:02:59,339
this subject however much we want them

1637
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:03,180
to publicly yeah publicly yeah I mean

1638
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:04,799
the only other one is the the one that

1639
01:03:09,470 --> 01:03:06,960
they did in 1951 you know the flying

1640
01:03:11,690 --> 01:03:09,480
source of working party yeah so there's

1641
01:03:13,849 --> 01:03:11,700
50 years separating those two which I

1642
01:03:15,890 --> 01:03:13,859
find fascinating exactly because there's

1643
01:03:18,349 --> 01:03:15,900
so many interesting cases between those

1644
01:03:20,450 --> 01:03:18,359
two yeah so many

1645
01:03:22,130 --> 01:03:20,460
and that's what I thought that's why I

1646
01:03:25,549 --> 01:03:22,140
mentioned to you before about the radar

1647
01:03:27,710 --> 01:03:25,559
cases and uh uh why they weren't really

1648
01:03:31,670 --> 01:03:27,720
featured and they weren't that important

1649
01:03:34,609 --> 01:03:31,680
in condyn but I guess times change and

1650
01:03:36,770 --> 01:03:34,619
radar changes yeah and the thing is when

1651
01:03:38,750 --> 01:03:36,780
he did this study he was given access to

1652
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:38,760
the top what was then the documents that

1653
01:03:44,089 --> 01:03:41,280
were in the top secret archives and the

1654
01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:44,099
earliest di55 file that he could find

1655
01:03:49,150 --> 01:03:46,319
was from 1974.

1656
01:03:52,130 --> 01:03:49,160
so they destroyed a lot more previously

1657
01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:52,140
all the good stuff had been destroyed I

1658
01:03:54,829 --> 01:03:53,280
mean we've talked about this Vinnie

1659
01:03:58,030 --> 01:03:54,839
aren't we on the earlier programs you

1660
01:04:04,670 --> 01:04:01,609
all the files on those on those cases no

1661
01:04:08,329 --> 01:04:04,680
longer existed when he um started doing

1662
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:08,339
the study in fact he didn't even see the

1663
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:11,099
Flying Saucer working party report

1664
01:04:16,250 --> 01:04:13,920
because it was missing at the time

1665
01:04:18,049 --> 01:04:16,260
so he if you read the report he says he

1666
01:04:19,309 --> 01:04:18,059
found the references to the fact that a

1667
01:04:21,190 --> 01:04:19,319
report had been done for Winston

1668
01:04:24,190 --> 01:04:21,200
Churchill but they never got the report

1669
01:04:26,510 --> 01:04:24,200
I I found it

1670
01:04:28,190 --> 01:04:26,520
because they'd lost it they'd put it

1671
01:04:30,049 --> 01:04:28,200
inside another file

1672
01:04:32,329 --> 01:04:30,059
so where you found it physically in the

1673
01:04:34,730 --> 01:04:32,339
National Archives well I found a

1674
01:04:36,289 --> 01:04:34,740
reference to it and I I contacted them

1675
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:36,299
and said look where's where's this

1676
01:04:40,430 --> 01:04:38,640
report that I know was produced in 1951

1677
01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:40,440
and they said oh well we've looked for

1678
01:04:43,609 --> 01:04:41,760
it several times and haven't been able

1679
01:04:47,150 --> 01:04:43,619
to find it and I said well go look again

1680
01:04:49,670 --> 01:04:47,160
and eventually after going through a

1681
01:04:51,650 --> 01:04:49,680
various files I think it was a

1682
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:51,660
scientific intelligence file it was

1683
01:04:55,970 --> 01:04:53,520
inside another file and he was like oh

1684
01:04:58,730 --> 01:04:55,980
we found it would you like to see it

1685
01:05:01,430 --> 01:04:58,740
but this was after the report this was

1686
01:05:04,490 --> 01:05:01,440
after Ron hadu had completed the condyn

1687
01:05:07,130 --> 01:05:04,500
report so he never saw that himself

1688
01:05:09,049 --> 01:05:07,140
because he'd already completed his study

1689
01:05:11,210 --> 01:05:09,059
by then I don't know whether it would

1690
01:05:13,490 --> 01:05:11,220
have changed anything but well that's

1691
01:05:15,950 --> 01:05:13,500
the thing you know we look at these sort

1692
01:05:17,690 --> 01:05:15,960
of the minutiae and the details in

1693
01:05:19,849 --> 01:05:17,700
certain aspects but even if they were

1694
01:05:22,130 --> 01:05:19,859
focused on more that nothing would have

1695
01:05:24,650 --> 01:05:22,140
come of it and it's a Pity that he's

1696
01:05:26,450 --> 01:05:24,660
never spoken himself I mean I I've tried

1697
01:05:29,150 --> 01:05:26,460
to get him to talk to me I've written to

1698
01:05:30,589 --> 01:05:29,160
him politely I even went to his where he

1699
01:05:31,789 --> 01:05:30,599
lives on one occasion knocked on his

1700
01:05:34,250 --> 01:05:31,799
door and pushed a letter through his

1701
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:34,260
letterbox but he's he's obviously been

1702
01:05:36,470 --> 01:05:35,280
told

1703
01:05:38,930 --> 01:05:36,480
um

1704
01:05:40,970 --> 01:05:38,940
don't speak to David Clark under any

1705
01:05:42,890 --> 01:05:40,980
circumstances you know but

1706
01:05:45,349 --> 01:05:42,900
yeah there's that but there's also the

1707
01:05:47,390 --> 01:05:45,359
way his whole life changed and his

1708
01:05:49,010 --> 01:05:47,400
belief systems and I mean maybe we

1709
01:05:51,770 --> 01:05:49,020
should speak about that the book he

1710
01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:51,780
wrote and yeah he went quite off onto

1711
01:05:55,730 --> 01:05:53,640
the side of religion and stuff like that

1712
01:05:56,569 --> 01:05:55,740
didn't he he did yeah he wrote a book a

1713
01:05:59,870 --> 01:05:56,579
novel

1714
01:06:02,030 --> 01:05:59,880
um about the uh the Third World War he

1715
01:06:04,430 --> 01:06:02,040
believes uh he's a he's a member of a

1716
01:06:06,289 --> 01:06:04,440
particular Christian sect

1717
01:06:07,609 --> 01:06:06,299
um he wrote a novel called No Weapon

1718
01:06:09,410 --> 01:06:07,619
forged

1719
01:06:11,210 --> 01:06:09,420
um and the interesting thing is is a

1720
01:06:13,010 --> 01:06:11,220
two-page biography of him in there that

1721
01:06:16,010 --> 01:06:13,020
effectively

1722
01:06:18,170 --> 01:06:16,020
people says he doesn't say that he

1723
01:06:20,329 --> 01:06:18,180
worked on UFOs but he if you read his

1724
01:06:22,010 --> 01:06:20,339
biography it's very clear that he is the

1725
01:06:24,109 --> 01:06:22,020
person who wrote the condyn report

1726
01:06:27,289 --> 01:06:24,119
because his description of his job

1727
01:06:29,589 --> 01:06:27,299
it almost fits the template precisely

1728
01:06:33,049 --> 01:06:29,599
you know that he worked for this gec

1729
01:06:35,870 --> 01:06:33,059
Marconi uh he's interested in radar he

1730
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:35,880
flew major in the second in the in the

1731
01:06:41,630 --> 01:06:38,160
Cold War et cetera Etc the book doesn't

1732
01:06:43,849 --> 01:06:41,640
mention UFOs at all disappointingly but

1733
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:43,859
the interesting thing is this is one of

1734
01:06:49,730 --> 01:06:46,559
the things that I managed that one of

1735
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:49,740
the little clues that identified him I

1736
01:06:53,690 --> 01:06:51,119
found the reference and I don't think

1737
01:06:56,210 --> 01:06:53,700
it's online anymore on a on a News Group

1738
01:06:59,809 --> 01:06:56,220
discussion and it was about a meeting

1739
01:07:02,809 --> 01:06:59,819
that had been held in Israel in I think

1740
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:02,819
2000 shortly after he'd completed the

1741
01:07:06,890 --> 01:07:05,039
report and it was a conference um called

1742
01:07:09,650 --> 01:07:06,900
the um the conference of the Tabernacles

1743
01:07:12,950 --> 01:07:09,660
okay and and it was someone who had

1744
01:07:15,170 --> 01:07:12,960
attended this um this this meeting who

1745
01:07:17,690 --> 01:07:15,180
said we had a really strange report

1746
01:07:19,130 --> 01:07:17,700
um Talk by someone

1747
01:07:21,529 --> 01:07:19,140
um who was a former British government

1748
01:07:25,309 --> 01:07:21,539
scientist who

1749
01:07:27,710 --> 01:07:25,319
um his talk was on um UFOs and uaps and

1750
01:07:29,809 --> 01:07:27,720
about Dusty plasmas and how these things

1751
01:07:31,250 --> 01:07:29,819
in the atmosphere were causing Pilots to

1752
01:07:33,650 --> 01:07:31,260
see UFOs

1753
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:33,660
and this guy who I think he was a

1754
01:07:37,549 --> 01:07:35,760
Canadian and bloke and he was talking

1755
01:07:39,650 --> 01:07:37,559
about that he'd attended this meeting

1756
01:07:43,010 --> 01:07:39,660
where this British government scientist

1757
01:07:45,950 --> 01:07:43,020
was talking about UFOs in 2000 and in

1758
01:07:47,630 --> 01:07:45,960
Ron haddo's book he says he was at that

1759
01:07:50,829 --> 01:07:47,640
conference

1760
01:07:54,230 --> 01:07:50,839
now uh I don't don't call me Hercules

1761
01:07:57,349 --> 01:07:54,240
but I thought I put two and two together

1762
01:07:59,569 --> 01:07:57,359
it's clearly Ron had her and after

1763
01:08:02,870 --> 01:07:59,579
delivering the report he attended this

1764
01:08:05,089 --> 01:08:02,880
religious conference in in Israel and

1765
01:08:06,829 --> 01:08:05,099
for some reason they must have been

1766
01:08:09,529 --> 01:08:06,839
asked to talk about whatever they'd done

1767
01:08:12,349 --> 01:08:09,539
in their career and he decided to talk

1768
01:08:13,069 --> 01:08:12,359
about new APS

1769
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:13,079
foreign

1770
01:08:16,490 --> 01:08:14,880
so I mean all the stuff about you

1771
01:08:18,709 --> 01:08:16,500
shouldn't be revealing people's identity

1772
01:08:21,289 --> 01:08:18,719
and privacy and that he he actually was

1773
01:08:24,229 --> 01:08:21,299
speaking in public so he's effectively

1774
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:24,239
outed himself as far as I'm concerned

1775
01:08:27,470 --> 01:08:25,920
um and he wrote this novel as well in

1776
01:08:29,630 --> 01:08:27,480
which he published a biography of

1777
01:08:31,970 --> 01:08:29,640
himself so a number of different things

1778
01:08:33,050 --> 01:08:31,980
came together to identify him as the

1779
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:33,060
author

1780
01:08:35,689 --> 01:08:34,560
and you mentioned it I think briefly

1781
01:08:37,550 --> 01:08:35,699
earlier that you have tried and get in

1782
01:08:39,950 --> 01:08:37,560
contact with him over the years but to

1783
01:08:42,289 --> 01:08:39,960
no avail I mean was that because he

1784
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:42,299
didn't want to speak or it was just we

1785
01:08:48,590 --> 01:08:45,359
don't know but I do know because there

1786
01:08:50,570 --> 01:08:48,600
are several um documents in the files

1787
01:08:52,669 --> 01:08:50,580
that have been released other defense

1788
01:08:54,289 --> 01:08:52,679
Intelligence Officers who I have

1789
01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:54,299
approached

1790
01:08:58,070 --> 01:08:56,100
um to ask them about UFOs they've

1791
01:08:59,930 --> 01:08:58,080
there's actually their letters to the

1792
01:09:02,090 --> 01:08:59,940
mod saying this guy from Sheffield

1793
01:09:05,030 --> 01:09:02,100
university has contacted us what should

1794
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:05,040
we do speak to them and there is one

1795
01:09:09,769 --> 01:09:06,719
where they say to this guy and this was

1796
01:09:12,229 --> 01:09:09,779
a guy who'd worked on UFOs in the 1950s

1797
01:09:14,570 --> 01:09:12,239
for defense intelligence and I remember

1798
01:09:16,189 --> 01:09:14,580
contacting him and he lived in

1799
01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:16,199
Lincolnshire

1800
01:09:19,669 --> 01:09:18,000
um and he was like oh yeah yeah I'd love

1801
01:09:21,229 --> 01:09:19,679
to talk to you about it um you know

1802
01:09:23,090 --> 01:09:21,239
let's fix up a day and then I got back

1803
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:23,100
to him and he suddenly clammed up and it

1804
01:09:25,490 --> 01:09:24,000
was like

1805
01:09:27,769 --> 01:09:25,500
um I've decided I don't want to talk to

1806
01:09:30,110 --> 01:09:27,779
you and then in the files there's his

1807
01:09:31,789 --> 01:09:30,120
letter to mod saying should I speak to

1808
01:09:34,430 --> 01:09:31,799
David Clark and this and they sort of

1809
01:09:36,890 --> 01:09:34,440
say no don't because you might reveal

1810
01:09:38,630 --> 01:09:36,900
something that's um secret you know and

1811
01:09:40,610 --> 01:09:38,640
don't forget uh you've signed the

1812
01:09:44,809 --> 01:09:40,620
official Secrets act so it

1813
01:09:47,150 --> 01:09:44,819
and 100 certain that Ron haddo will have

1814
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:47,160
gone to the mod and said this guy who's

1815
01:09:51,470 --> 01:09:49,440
discovered I'm the author has contacted

1816
01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:51,480
me he wants to talk to me

1817
01:09:54,830 --> 01:09:53,279
um should I speak should I should I talk

1818
01:09:57,950 --> 01:09:54,840
to him about it and they'll have said no

1819
01:10:01,610 --> 01:09:57,960
I'd be a breach of official Secrets Act

1820
01:10:03,890 --> 01:10:01,620
so Ron haddo is now 86 years old

1821
01:10:05,930 --> 01:10:03,900
he's not going to be around for a much

1822
01:10:08,270 --> 01:10:05,940
longer is he really and when it's no

1823
01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:08,280
longer around his knowledge of this

1824
01:10:13,189 --> 01:10:10,800
subject is going to be gone forever yeah

1825
01:10:14,930 --> 01:10:13,199
and he's never going to speak about it

1826
01:10:18,530 --> 01:10:14,940
in public is he and I think that's a

1827
01:10:20,750 --> 01:10:18,540
tragedy and I mean Ian Cobain wrote a

1828
01:10:23,090 --> 01:10:20,760
book called the history thieves which is

1829
01:10:24,590 --> 01:10:23,100
all about how the ministry of defense

1830
01:10:25,850 --> 01:10:24,600
and the National Archives and some of

1831
01:10:28,610 --> 01:10:25,860
these other government departments

1832
01:10:31,070 --> 01:10:28,620
conspire to hide

1833
01:10:33,770 --> 01:10:31,080
um material from the public and not only

1834
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:33,780
by redacting names from documents back

1835
01:10:38,450 --> 01:10:36,239
to Calvin again then just ensure that

1836
01:10:40,310 --> 01:10:38,460
people who might say something about

1837
01:10:41,990 --> 01:10:40,320
subjects that they don't want the public

1838
01:10:44,209 --> 01:10:42,000
to know about are never going to be able

1839
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:44,219
to do that and that's effectively

1840
01:10:48,410 --> 01:10:46,800
stealing our history and the history of

1841
01:10:50,209 --> 01:10:48,420
this subject as far as I'm concerned I

1842
01:10:51,709 --> 01:10:50,219
think it's inexcusable

1843
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:51,719
yeah I mean there's two ways of looking

1844
01:10:55,070 --> 01:10:53,400
at it isn't it like they're doing their

1845
01:10:56,930 --> 01:10:55,080
job they've signed the official Secrets

1846
01:10:58,250 --> 01:10:56,940
act yeah but surely so there should be

1847
01:10:59,689 --> 01:10:58,260
some kind of time scale on that like

1848
01:11:01,610 --> 01:10:59,699
there is with the or there was with the

1849
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,620
release of documents you know 20 year

1850
01:11:05,810 --> 01:11:04,080
old 30-year rule yeah it should be a

1851
01:11:07,850 --> 01:11:05,820
something similar along those lines I

1852
01:11:09,590 --> 01:11:07,860
think but also it's contradictory

1853
01:11:11,450 --> 01:11:09,600
because they're saying and they've said

1854
01:11:14,810 --> 01:11:11,460
on the record numerous times that the

1855
01:11:16,189 --> 01:11:14,820
subject of UFOs itself is not subject to

1856
01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:16,199
the official Secrets act that they're

1857
01:11:21,350 --> 01:11:17,760
not trying to hide anything there's

1858
01:11:23,810 --> 01:11:21,360
nothing to hide therefore why can't

1859
01:11:25,490 --> 01:11:23,820
these people speak about what they did

1860
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:25,500
when they were studying the subject and

1861
01:11:28,850 --> 01:11:26,880
what they found

1862
01:11:30,830 --> 01:11:28,860
the only the only reason is is that

1863
01:11:32,270 --> 01:11:30,840
these people were some were subjected

1864
01:11:34,729 --> 01:11:32,280
they'd sign the official Secrets act

1865
01:11:37,010 --> 01:11:34,739
they were involved in all kinds of other

1866
01:11:38,750 --> 01:11:37,020
um activities to do with Espionage to do

1867
01:11:41,450 --> 01:11:38,760
with cold war

1868
01:11:43,250 --> 01:11:41,460
um you know Russian

1869
01:11:44,630 --> 01:11:43,260
um technology that kind of thing and

1870
01:11:46,669 --> 01:11:44,640
they don't want their identities

1871
01:11:49,070 --> 01:11:46,679
published and their identities by

1872
01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:49,080
talking about UFOs would then make them

1873
01:11:53,930 --> 01:11:51,360
the target for enemy

1874
01:11:56,030 --> 01:11:53,940
um agents that's I can I can understand

1875
01:11:58,370 --> 01:11:56,040
that but I think there are ways of

1876
01:12:00,290 --> 01:11:58,380
allowing their

1877
01:12:02,149 --> 01:12:00,300
um what they know about the subject to

1878
01:12:04,010 --> 01:12:02,159
emerging public without

1879
01:12:06,290 --> 01:12:04,020
um putting them in a in a vulnerable

1880
01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:06,300
position yeah I agree

1881
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:08,640
but I guess they take the easy way out

1882
01:12:12,590 --> 01:12:10,560
of that yeah best just not to talk about

1883
01:12:15,229 --> 01:12:12,600
it at all than what what trouble can we

1884
01:12:17,090 --> 01:12:15,239
get into and I suppose here is we ought

1885
01:12:20,270 --> 01:12:17,100
to say what the latest developments on

1886
01:12:23,649 --> 01:12:20,280
this um I guess that's a great place to

1887
01:12:25,729 --> 01:12:23,659
finish it off with wow yeah absolutely

1888
01:12:27,290 --> 01:12:25,739
right well

1889
01:12:29,090 --> 01:12:27,300
um

1890
01:12:30,890 --> 01:12:29,100
as with all

1891
01:12:32,930 --> 01:12:30,900
um documents

1892
01:12:34,610 --> 01:12:32,940
um public documents like this I mean and

1893
01:12:36,169 --> 01:12:34,620
this is a hefty document as we've seen

1894
01:12:36,910 --> 01:12:36,179
it's four volumes

1895
01:12:44,030 --> 01:12:36,920
um

1896
01:12:46,250 --> 01:12:44,040
been withheld and have been redacted as

1897
01:12:48,410 --> 01:12:46,260
with all public documents this should

1898
01:12:50,810 --> 01:12:48,420
eventually be sent to the National

1899
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,820
Archives to go into the National

1900
01:12:54,649 --> 01:12:52,560
Archives so that you can order it up

1901
01:12:56,570 --> 01:12:54,659
when you go to queue and see the

1902
01:12:57,770 --> 01:12:56,580
document even if bits of it have to be

1903
01:12:59,149 --> 01:12:57,780
retained

1904
01:13:01,370 --> 01:12:59,159
so

1905
01:13:03,590 --> 01:13:01,380
um because it's quite recent that's not

1906
01:13:05,390 --> 01:13:03,600
going to happen for a long time so in my

1907
01:13:07,130 --> 01:13:05,400
correspondence with the mod I've sort of

1908
01:13:10,430 --> 01:13:07,140
over the years said right well when is

1909
01:13:13,370 --> 01:13:10,440
this the original copy of the report

1910
01:13:15,410 --> 01:13:13,380
going to be transferred or reviewed for

1911
01:13:18,050 --> 01:13:15,420
transfer to the National Archives and

1912
01:13:19,430 --> 01:13:18,060
they'd already said that UFO documents

1913
01:13:20,810 --> 01:13:19,440
because of the in the hands public

1914
01:13:23,390 --> 01:13:20,820
interest in them and the number of

1915
01:13:27,229 --> 01:13:23,400
people they're asking to see stuff and

1916
01:13:28,790 --> 01:13:27,239
now one of the areas topics that if

1917
01:13:30,649 --> 01:13:28,800
they've got something on the subject it

1918
01:13:33,410 --> 01:13:30,659
mustn't be destroyed it's alongside like

1919
01:13:35,330 --> 01:13:33,420
the royal family now in their their list

1920
01:13:36,590 --> 01:13:35,340
of priority documents yeah that

1921
01:13:38,270 --> 01:13:36,600
shouldn't be destroyed that should be

1922
01:13:40,790 --> 01:13:38,280
transferred to the National Archive so I

1923
01:13:43,729 --> 01:13:40,800
I sort of waited and I think it was in

1924
01:13:45,890 --> 01:13:43,739
2018 I um I contacted them and said now

1925
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:45,900
then calm down report when are you going

1926
01:13:50,030 --> 01:13:47,280
to review it for release at the National

1927
01:13:52,250 --> 01:13:50,040
Archives and I got a very unequivocal

1928
01:13:53,510 --> 01:13:52,260
reply um it's coming up for review in

1929
01:13:55,610 --> 01:13:53,520
2020.

1930
01:13:57,649 --> 01:13:55,620
and this is the full unredacted version

1931
01:13:59,090 --> 01:13:57,659
yeah coming up for review and that's

1932
01:14:00,169 --> 01:13:59,100
when we'll look at it and see when it

1933
01:14:02,450 --> 01:14:00,179
can be transferred it's a public

1934
01:14:04,130 --> 01:14:02,460
document under the public records act so

1935
01:14:06,290 --> 01:14:04,140
I just thought yeah great okay I'll

1936
01:14:07,970 --> 01:14:06,300
leave it and then of course kovid came

1937
01:14:09,770 --> 01:14:07,980
along and Calvin and all these other

1938
01:14:11,149 --> 01:14:09,780
things and distracted me now

1939
01:14:12,709 --> 01:14:11,159
um I'd forgotten about him but Matthew

1940
01:14:15,470 --> 01:14:12,719
ilesley

1941
01:14:17,390 --> 01:14:15,480
who's part of our little team

1942
01:14:20,149 --> 01:14:17,400
um looking at the Calvin

1943
01:14:21,229 --> 01:14:20,159
um photograph he'd he he was interested

1944
01:14:24,169 --> 01:14:21,239
in them

1945
01:14:26,270 --> 01:14:24,179
the report so he wrote to the emods and

1946
01:14:28,550 --> 01:14:26,280
asked the same question not knowing that

1947
01:14:32,030 --> 01:14:28,560
they told me it was coming up for review

1948
01:14:34,250 --> 01:14:32,040
and it was a public document and well

1949
01:14:36,709 --> 01:14:34,260
Vinnie what did they tell Matthew

1950
01:14:40,010 --> 01:14:36,719
but there was no trace of it there was

1951
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:40,020
it they couldn't find it anywhere it no

1952
01:14:46,130 --> 01:14:42,480
longer existed yeah it didn't exist

1953
01:14:49,850 --> 01:14:48,590
and they told him basically that when

1954
01:14:51,410 --> 01:14:49,860
they'd scanned it you know we were

1955
01:14:53,990 --> 01:14:51,420
talking about the the version you can

1956
01:14:56,630 --> 01:14:54,000
click on and download that's so annoying

1957
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:56,640
that whoever had scammed it had

1958
01:15:00,530 --> 01:14:58,800
accidentally destroyed it

1959
01:15:01,729 --> 01:15:00,540
when he was scanning it or she was

1960
01:15:03,350 --> 01:15:01,739
scanning it

1961
01:15:05,830 --> 01:15:03,360
unbelievable

1962
01:15:08,330 --> 01:15:05,840
and quite naturally Matthew was like

1963
01:15:10,189 --> 01:15:08,340
stunned to hear this because the

1964
01:15:12,890 --> 01:15:10,199
document itself if you actually look at

1965
01:15:15,050 --> 01:15:12,900
the cover it says this is a this is a

1966
01:15:17,149 --> 01:15:15,060
secret document under the you know the

1967
01:15:19,130 --> 01:15:17,159
official Secrets act under no

1968
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:19,140
circumstances should it be destroyed and

1969
01:15:23,689 --> 01:15:20,880
anyone trying to destroy it will be

1970
01:15:26,030 --> 01:15:23,699
prosecuted and yet somehow they'd manage

1971
01:15:28,750 --> 01:15:26,040
to lose it and completely destroy the

1972
01:15:34,669 --> 01:15:32,450
so um when Matthew told me this

1973
01:15:38,030 --> 01:15:34,679
because they're trying to fold him off

1974
01:15:42,350 --> 01:15:38,040
I sent him what they told me in 2018.

1975
01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:42,360
that it it did exist in 2018

1976
01:15:46,310 --> 01:15:44,400
um that it it was a public document

1977
01:15:48,590 --> 01:15:46,320
therefore it's illegal for it to be

1978
01:15:50,450 --> 01:15:48,600
destroyed and so I immediately went back

1979
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:50,460
to them and said hold on a minute you

1980
01:15:55,790 --> 01:15:52,560
know how can you have destroyed it this

1981
01:15:57,770 --> 01:15:55,800
is this is a a criminal offense for it

1982
01:16:00,110 --> 01:15:57,780
to have been destroyed anyway this has

1983
01:16:03,169 --> 01:16:00,120
obviously caused Mayhem because we've

1984
01:16:05,689 --> 01:16:03,179
we've we've now been told

1985
01:16:08,930 --> 01:16:05,699
um that there's a an investigation going

1986
01:16:11,810 --> 01:16:08,940
on in the mod by the um departmental

1987
01:16:13,070 --> 01:16:11,820
record officer into how this could

1988
01:16:13,910 --> 01:16:13,080
possibly have happened and they've

1989
01:16:15,770 --> 01:16:13,920
written to all these different

1990
01:16:17,570 --> 01:16:15,780
organizations that we've just seen on

1991
01:16:18,590 --> 01:16:17,580
that list I've got them now if you want

1992
01:16:21,890 --> 01:16:18,600
to have a look at them and go through

1993
01:16:27,290 --> 01:16:24,530
there are many like so these are all

1994
01:16:29,090 --> 01:16:27,300
people that had the original unredacted

1995
01:16:31,070 --> 01:16:29,100
version so if you could break them down

1996
01:16:35,270 --> 01:16:31,080
for us because I don't know the acronyms

1997
01:16:37,790 --> 01:16:35,280
and I'm hoping okay Deputy bcdi is the

1998
01:16:40,550 --> 01:16:37,800
Deputy Chief of Defense intelligence so

1999
01:16:43,729 --> 01:16:40,560
he's he or she is

2000
01:16:45,649 --> 01:16:43,739
um the person who is second down in the

2001
01:16:47,510 --> 01:16:45,659
pecking order from the head of Defense

2002
01:16:50,270 --> 01:16:47,520
intelligence which is a very senior

2003
01:16:53,570 --> 01:16:50,280
military role so that person is a

2004
01:16:54,950 --> 01:16:53,580
civilian a civil servant the the head of

2005
01:17:00,709 --> 01:16:54,960
Defense intelligence is a military

2006
01:17:02,390 --> 01:17:00,719
officer either an RAF Royal Navy or Army

2007
01:17:04,970 --> 01:17:02,400
um but the the one who would I don't

2008
01:17:06,950 --> 01:17:04,980
know who that was in 2000 but it was the

2009
01:17:09,950 --> 01:17:06,960
deputy who would be a civil servant and

2010
01:17:10,970 --> 01:17:09,960
so Deputy Chief of Defense intelligence

2011
01:17:12,530 --> 01:17:10,980
um

2012
01:17:14,330 --> 01:17:12,540
I'm not sure what the other one is but

2013
01:17:16,430 --> 01:17:14,340
it's something to do with research and

2014
01:17:18,110 --> 01:17:16,440
research and Technology research and

2015
01:17:19,610 --> 01:17:18,120
technology so whoever he was he was

2016
01:17:22,250 --> 01:17:19,620
involved in sort of Cutting Edge

2017
01:17:24,050 --> 01:17:22,260
technology yeah black projects and uavs

2018
01:17:27,290 --> 01:17:24,060
that kind of thing

2019
01:17:30,169 --> 01:17:27,300
um adg is that Branch you know the one

2020
01:17:33,169 --> 01:17:30,179
where we said there was secasdi 55 and

2021
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:33,179
so air defense air defense under RAF

2022
01:17:38,570 --> 01:17:35,760
air defense ground environment so they

2023
01:17:40,490 --> 01:17:38,580
are the the the part of the RAF that

2024
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:40,500
runs RAF filing deals for instance you

2025
01:17:45,470 --> 01:17:42,480
know the yeah so ground Radars and stuff

2026
01:17:46,910 --> 01:17:45,480
like that earwax as well yeah

2027
01:17:50,090 --> 01:17:46,920
um ifs

2028
01:17:52,010 --> 01:17:50,100
um RAF is um I think they're based at

2029
01:17:54,410 --> 01:17:52,020
Bentley Priory so they are the part of

2030
01:17:57,770 --> 01:17:54,420
the RAF that investigate air crashes you

2031
01:17:59,330 --> 01:17:57,780
know RAF air crash investigators and

2032
01:18:02,390 --> 01:17:59,340
that they're copied in because of the

2033
01:18:04,790 --> 01:18:02,400
thing about the near-miss yeah incident

2034
01:18:07,310 --> 01:18:04,800
um HQ meter that's military air traffic

2035
01:18:09,470 --> 01:18:07,320
organization that no longer exists that

2036
01:18:12,590 --> 01:18:09,480
was based at Uxbridge I believe in 2000

2037
01:18:14,570 --> 01:18:12,600
and it was like a intermediary agency

2038
01:18:16,250 --> 01:18:14,580
that that was sort of like a halfway

2039
01:18:18,410 --> 01:18:16,260
house between the military and the

2040
01:18:20,930 --> 01:18:18,420
severe civil aviation Authority so they

2041
01:18:22,130 --> 01:18:20,940
make sense radar they no longer exist

2042
01:18:27,890 --> 01:18:22,140
right

2043
01:18:30,890 --> 01:18:27,900
um ADI 55 di51 is um di55 was the space

2044
01:18:33,470 --> 01:18:30,900
weapons branch and di51 was the

2045
01:18:35,450 --> 01:18:33,480
electronic surveillance Branch so so

2046
01:18:37,189 --> 01:18:35,460
they were involved in all kinds of

2047
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:37,199
spooky activities as well you know

2048
01:18:42,290 --> 01:18:39,120
remote viewing they did a remote viewing

2049
01:18:45,050 --> 01:18:42,300
study it di51 and they were interested

2050
01:18:47,090 --> 01:18:45,060
in the UFOs as well so they were all

2051
01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:47,100
copied they all got a copy of the full

2052
01:18:51,649 --> 01:18:49,440
report and they've all some of those

2053
01:18:52,970 --> 01:18:51,659
organizations no longer exist or you

2054
01:18:54,709 --> 01:18:52,980
know like they're constantly changing

2055
01:18:56,510 --> 01:18:54,719
the names and the acronyms are changing

2056
01:18:58,970 --> 01:18:56,520
so they've they've Tracked Down who are

2057
01:19:01,189 --> 01:18:58,980
the successor organizations and they

2058
01:19:02,870 --> 01:19:01,199
said have you got a copy of this

2059
01:19:05,870 --> 01:19:02,880
and apparently they've all come back and

2060
01:19:10,130 --> 01:19:07,850
so I I said to them in my last letter

2061
01:19:12,530 --> 01:19:10,140
why don't you go and ask Ron haddo he

2062
01:19:14,270 --> 01:19:12,540
wrote it maybe he's kept a copy of it

2063
01:19:16,010 --> 01:19:14,280
and of course they don't even want to

2064
01:19:18,050 --> 01:19:16,020
talk about Ron had her because you know

2065
01:19:19,610 --> 01:19:18,060
it's age protection you know

2066
01:19:21,290 --> 01:19:19,620
you know but he would be the obvious

2067
01:19:23,450 --> 01:19:21,300
person to go and ask

2068
01:19:25,370 --> 01:19:23,460
absolutely

2069
01:19:28,189 --> 01:19:25,380
I mean so um

2070
01:19:30,110 --> 01:19:28,199
so it was kind of a dead end again

2071
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:30,120
they promised me a copy of their

2072
01:19:36,310 --> 01:19:32,880
investigation report but I just think

2073
01:19:38,630 --> 01:19:36,320
it's embarrassing and it

2074
01:19:40,070 --> 01:19:38,640
if you if you want to see this as a

2075
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:40,080
conspiracy

2076
01:19:44,330 --> 01:19:42,239
please be my guest because it does look

2077
01:19:46,130 --> 01:19:44,340
suspicious well how have they destroyed

2078
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:46,140
this thing

2079
01:19:51,830 --> 01:19:48,960
um but just knowing what um what chaos

2080
01:19:54,050 --> 01:19:51,840
civil service departments are alike no

2081
01:19:55,790 --> 01:19:54,060
one keeps paper records anymore I mean

2082
01:19:57,530 --> 01:19:55,800
you go and ask any Department of

2083
01:19:58,729 --> 01:19:57,540
government have you got any paper

2084
01:20:00,590 --> 01:19:58,739
records

2085
01:20:03,229 --> 01:20:00,600
and they'll say no we got rid of them

2086
01:20:06,050 --> 01:20:03,239
all years ago so we've only at our

2087
01:20:08,870 --> 01:20:06,060
corporate memory only goes back two

2088
01:20:11,810 --> 01:20:08,880
years everything else has been destroyed

2089
01:20:14,930 --> 01:20:11,820
and I think it's this is an example of

2090
01:20:18,410 --> 01:20:14,940
pure and utter incompetence

2091
01:20:21,350 --> 01:20:18,420
yeah you know and but why someone would

2092
01:20:23,330 --> 01:20:21,360
destroy a a document like this which is

2093
01:20:26,390 --> 01:20:23,340
clearly of historical importance which

2094
01:20:27,890 --> 01:20:26,400
they themselves have said because they

2095
01:20:30,290 --> 01:20:27,900
said in 2011

2096
01:20:32,630 --> 01:20:30,300
the subject of UFOs now because of the

2097
01:20:34,910 --> 01:20:32,640
number of foi requests we get and the

2098
01:20:37,490 --> 01:20:34,920
general interest in the subject means

2099
01:20:39,290 --> 01:20:37,500
that they've listed UFOs alongside the

2100
01:20:40,790 --> 01:20:39,300
royal family this family or they're all

2101
01:20:43,430 --> 01:20:40,800
these different topics

2102
01:20:45,830 --> 01:20:43,440
under no circumstances should documents

2103
01:20:48,169 --> 01:20:45,840
that refer to this subject be destroyed

2104
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:48,179
and yet someone apparently destroyed it

2105
01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:52,080
and even knowing how um the mod Works a

2106
01:20:56,750 --> 01:20:54,719
top secret document to destroy it you've

2107
01:20:59,390 --> 01:20:56,760
got to get it's you've got to get the

2108
01:21:01,790 --> 01:20:59,400
decision to destroy it signed off by a

2109
01:21:03,770 --> 01:21:01,800
senior Ministry of Defense official so

2110
01:21:06,590 --> 01:21:03,780
they have a destruction certificate yeah

2111
01:21:08,630 --> 01:21:06,600
that someone has to sign before that

2112
01:21:11,270 --> 01:21:08,640
document goes into an incinerator that

2113
01:21:13,310 --> 01:21:11,280
says right you know calm down report

2114
01:21:15,530 --> 01:21:13,320
um yeah fair enough we no longer need to

2115
01:21:17,450 --> 01:21:15,540
keep a copy of this destroy it and it's

2116
01:21:19,669 --> 01:21:17,460
signed by someone and that destruction

2117
01:21:21,709 --> 01:21:19,679
certificate has to be kept for a minimum

2118
01:21:24,830 --> 01:21:21,719
of five years so if it was destroyed in

2119
01:21:26,149 --> 01:21:24,840
2018 that destruction certificate should

2120
01:21:27,830 --> 01:21:26,159
still exist

2121
01:21:29,810 --> 01:21:27,840
this is one of the questions I've asked

2122
01:21:31,729 --> 01:21:29,820
them where's the destruction but that's

2123
01:21:32,870 --> 01:21:31,739
the thing I think this this I mean

2124
01:21:34,490 --> 01:21:32,880
you've been back and forth with them a

2125
01:21:36,530 --> 01:21:34,500
couple of times in the past six months I

2126
01:21:38,149 --> 01:21:36,540
know that but it is ongoing still we're

2127
01:21:39,910 --> 01:21:38,159
still yeah

2128
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:39,920
we're still waiting for him

2129
01:21:44,810 --> 01:21:42,480
we promise to keep me updated on the

2130
01:21:47,270 --> 01:21:44,820
subject yeah they'll drag that out as

2131
01:21:48,649 --> 01:21:47,280
best they can I'm sure yeah so they may

2132
01:21:50,090 --> 01:21:48,659
they might actually come and say can we

2133
01:21:52,930 --> 01:21:50,100
have your copy back because we've lost

2134
01:21:58,250 --> 01:21:55,390
no

2135
01:22:00,410 --> 01:21:58,260
well I think we covered everything there

2136
01:22:02,149 --> 01:22:00,420
uh looking at my notes and that like I

2137
01:22:03,229 --> 01:22:02,159
said to everyone earlier I've got a load

2138
01:22:05,450 --> 01:22:03,239
of these kind of back and forth

2139
01:22:07,189 --> 01:22:05,460
documents from di55 and the letters that

2140
01:22:09,110 --> 01:22:07,199
are not part of the report I'll pop them

2141
01:22:11,570 --> 01:22:09,120
into a drive and make them accessible to

2142
01:22:13,490 --> 01:22:11,580
everybody along with the full 400 page

2143
01:22:17,209 --> 01:22:13,500
report but um

2144
01:22:18,669 --> 01:22:17,219
yeah fascinating stuff it just skim the

2145
01:22:21,290 --> 01:22:18,679
surface here

2146
01:22:22,850 --> 01:22:21,300
you know so but we'll keep I mean with

2147
01:22:23,930 --> 01:22:22,860
this investigation this appeal that

2148
01:22:27,229 --> 01:22:23,940
we've got going on we'll keep people

2149
01:22:28,970 --> 01:22:27,239
updated same with Calvin you know as and

2150
01:22:31,610 --> 01:22:28,980
when if we get any groundbreaking news

2151
01:22:32,990 --> 01:22:31,620
we will of course you know do a show on

2152
01:22:34,610 --> 01:22:33,000
it um

2153
01:22:36,890 --> 01:22:34,620
but yeah I think that that's pretty much

2154
01:22:38,450 --> 01:22:36,900
it for this evening I mean uh I dare say

2155
01:22:40,010 --> 01:22:38,460
David will be back next month to talk

2156
01:22:41,930 --> 01:22:40,020
about another case that he's covered or

2157
01:22:43,910 --> 01:22:41,940
something in in the past because you

2158
01:22:46,250 --> 01:22:43,920
know he's full of the information so

2159
01:22:48,169 --> 01:22:46,260
we've covered most of it now really oh

2160
01:22:50,890 --> 01:22:48,179
we can always find it we could always

2161
01:22:53,570 --> 01:22:50,900
find something new

2162
01:22:56,450 --> 01:22:53,580
uh you know people do appreciate it I

2163
01:22:58,330 --> 01:22:56,460
appreciate it so so yeah

2164
01:23:00,950 --> 01:22:58,340
um I think we covered all the questions

2165
01:23:03,110 --> 01:23:00,960
a quick shout Davey Johnson thank you

2166
01:23:04,550 --> 01:23:03,120
for the 10 pound donation Lara glad to

2167
01:23:06,410 --> 01:23:04,560
see you rejoining the channel really

2168
01:23:07,970 --> 01:23:06,420
appreciate it all the support goes a

2169
01:23:09,950 --> 01:23:07,980
long way

2170
01:23:11,510 --> 01:23:09,960
um and yeah I've just seen in the chat

2171
01:23:14,209 --> 01:23:11,520
somebody's asking is there a critical

2172
01:23:16,790 --> 01:23:14,219
analysis of the report dizzy Vision

2173
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:16,800
um yes there is I wrote one for the um

2174
01:23:20,570 --> 01:23:18,000
oh

2175
01:23:23,090 --> 01:23:20,580
this magazine um is that the one I've

2176
01:23:26,090 --> 01:23:23,100
got as well yeah International UFO

2177
01:23:27,709 --> 01:23:26,100
reporter which is the public or was the

2178
01:23:30,110 --> 01:23:27,719
publication of the center for UFO

2179
01:23:34,610 --> 01:23:30,120
studies you know alaninex organization

2180
01:23:38,030 --> 01:23:34,620
yeah I did us I did it um a critical

2181
01:23:41,990 --> 01:23:38,040
stood um paper on this with Gary Anthony

2182
01:23:43,669 --> 01:23:42,000
back in when was it roll 30 number four

2183
01:23:45,590 --> 01:23:43,679
there it is

2184
01:23:47,810 --> 01:23:45,600
I'm sure you'll be able to download that

2185
01:23:49,550 --> 01:23:47,820
I'll pop that I'll pop a link to that as

2186
01:23:51,770 --> 01:23:49,560
well in the description

2187
01:23:53,030 --> 01:23:51,780
um I will put everything we've spoken

2188
01:23:54,610 --> 01:23:53,040
about that's not already in the

2189
01:23:59,570 --> 01:23:54,620
description I will add it for everybody

2190
01:24:01,669 --> 01:23:59,580
so uh yeah there we go everyone well

2191
01:24:03,590 --> 01:24:01,679
I guess that's it David yeah thank you

2192
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:03,600
as always thank you so much really

2193
01:24:07,070 --> 01:24:05,760
appreciate it thank you to everybody in

2194
01:24:08,810 --> 01:24:07,080
the chat

2195
01:24:11,209 --> 01:24:08,820
um yeah I appreciate you all being here

2196
01:24:13,490 --> 01:24:11,219
all the great questions and keeping it

2197
01:24:15,350 --> 01:24:13,500
nice and cordial I'm going to be back

2198
01:24:16,669 --> 01:24:15,360
next week go follow me on all my social

2199
01:24:18,709 --> 01:24:16,679
media things you can find out what's